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One of the many reasons I think that W’s are front and center in regards to evaluating the overall performace of a SP’er is that I’ve never noticed a negative career W/L record that was attached to a pitcher who is a member of the HOF. Another reason is that the only thing more important in the game of baseball than runs are W’s.
I tbink in todays games wins are even more indicative among starting pitchers, not pitchers bunched together. Starting pitchers getting wins now are indicative of the better pitchers. Its why you cant judge in a vacuum.
Uh oh…I happened to see that ’03 NL CYA winner Eric Gagne placed a 2-3 W/L record in the books that same season along with 55 SV’s…So much for my theory.
How do you rate guys like Luis Tiant, Kevin Brown, or Rick Reuschel? All had career winning records, but not by a lot because they played on a lot of bad teams. BWAR says they are some of the best pitchers of all time (top 50 anyway). But their lower total win totals have kept them out of the HOF.
Pitching wins is quite possibly the dumbest of all tracked baseball stats. Well, that and now we have added ABS challenge tracking %
You forgot batting average, its usually in that conversation. Lots of .230 hitters need love too.
BA is better than pitcher wins. It’s a good stat. Just a bad one to use against a guy like Wetherholt who is finding lots of ways to get on base, which is his job to do.
Speaking of which, JJ draws a walk.
And later comes around to score. It equals a run whether he got on with a single or a walk.
Scott’s bat has consistently been a no contest all season long. It’s a mismatch when he stands in for a PA. I’m not sure how long they can keep him on this roster.
I agree 1TD. He needs some time to regroup. Got to get Church back though first before Victor could get sent down.
Not only did Wetherholt draw the BB, he also came around to cross HP. He’s done his job very well so far this season.
Noot isn’t a CFer. I know he can play CF, but he’s not good at it. We need Church as an every day guy and then a backup in a pinch which is Torres or Noot. Torres could do it every day and maybe be average. I guess we will have to see how he performs.
Tiant, Rueschel and Brown were all single season 20 game winners and combined for over 650 W’s in their combined careers.
And yet they are not in the HOF because they didn’t win enough because they mostly played on poor offensive teams. That’s the part I find dumb. Had they played for the Yankees, they are first ballot HOFers.
Well those guys like tiant you can argue are hall of famers. They just didnt get the votes because of whatever reasons to actually get in. People rightly praise jj for getting on base by whatever means. It works out great esp if he scores. But if no one behind him gets hits then its less so. Unless he can automatically steal second, third, then maybe home for good measure, it can be for not much reward. Its why avg is more important than one thinks. If you are hitting for avg and if you have some wheels, some of those hits are going to be for at least 2 baggers by the hit or by bad defense of which there is far more of than baseball people realize.
Willie, I generally agree that hits are better than walks. I’m not saying that they aren’t (although leading off an inning, it’s virtually identical). My point has always been that Bling saying JJ is playing so-so because his BA is in the .230 range is absurd. JJ’s job is to play good defense (check), see lots of pitches to wear down pitchers (check), and get on base (check). He’s also added some power and come up in some key situations. JJ has been fantastic. Getting another .015 of batting average points to get to the .250 line is seriously like 1 or 2 more hits. JJ has been robbed on a lot of liners. Over time, many of those will be hits.
Torres about gets a home run and gets robbed of at least a double. Nice play by the Reds right fielder.
Well i never made the point jj was so so because of his avg. Though you say it could improve with just a few hits, it could as well gp the other way. I believe he will hit fine eventually though im not sure he will ever be great at it. Far as a hit n a walk being equal starting off an inning, i disagree. First off the hit immediately puts pressure on the defense cause they have to field it, do what they are supposed to do, throw it right place, whatever. Plus hitting not only leads to more confidence by the hitter but to the other players as well. And thirdly, if its a double, its a whole lot better than a walk.Why do you think they put the runner at second in extras as opposed to first.
I get bashed for tapping the brakes on JJ. I get we are supposed to genuflect when his name is mentioned, its always been that way with the hot new guy, but a low BA is a legitimate reason for concern. It is very difficult to maintain strong production over a full season when pulling a BA in the .230s. It is something that catches up with a hitter eventually. Hopefully he will pull it up as time goes on. On one hand, he will get better and more experienced, on the other, opponents will learn too, and evolve the pitching and defensive strategies employed against him. We will have to see what happens.
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