Shake up time?

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    The team seems mired in a funk right now, they aren’t doing terrible, but they seem out of whack to me. Every time you point at one problem, that problem seems to fade and another rises, then you point again and it moves again.

    This seems to be happening with a structure by Shildt that doesn’t seem to me like it is changing all that much. So to me, if that structure isn’t changing much and it is providing uneven results, a mild or major shake up might do well to fix it or at least see something different enough to prove to go back to what was working better.

    It is still early enough in the season to do this IMo, so why not go for it?

    Try posting some of your ideas for minor or major shake ups or changes that you think might help!


    Rotation changes: (with help for the bench or pen)
    -Hudson to AAA and bring up Ponce, then work the move so you then send down Ponce and bring up Gomber, then the same and bring up Woodford (and add him to the 40man), then cycle back to Hudson…. Do this for a few turns through the 4 guys
    -as you rotate the pitcher out after they start you bring up whatever extra guy you want for the series, maybe more thump, or defense, or an extra pen arm…doesnt really matter….inject some new energy and faces into the clubhouse with the likes of Sosa, Robinson, Helsley, Schrock, Oneill, whoever is on the 40 really.
    -this deosnt make Wacha or Waino into much more solid guys, but it might put a bit of energy into them and maybe notch up their fear of the youngsters taking their jobs, plus as they say competition is a good thing to have

    Bullpen changes:
    -CMart comes up, unfortunately someone has to go, I think Leone gets the AAA duties to right himself a bit
    -This should make our pen even stronger, and take a little pressure off Shildt to use Miller in a setup role so much

    Lineup changes:
    -Fowler, Goldy, DeJong, Ozuna, JMart, Yadi, Carp, Wong
    -Carp moves to the bottom of the lineup, it just needs to happen, it worked a couple years ago, but we can’t keep doing the same thing over and over and Fowler has earned the confidence to put him back at the top
    -Fowler has earned to move up and, do it
    -You could be a lot more radical with the lineup than I am proposing, but this is where I start (Yadi and JMart are far more deserving of higher spots in the lineup, but moving Carp off 1 and Goldy potentially down seems to much of a shock…even for me to suggest)

    Bench changes:
    -I like the bench, I’d prefer to have JMart on the bench more for pinch hitting, but with Bader not well and not hitting, it is what it is
    -Wieters, Gyorko, Munoz, Bader…not exciting, but far from bad

    Farm changes:
    -Reyes gets healthy and switches to prepping for starting full time
    -CMart in the pen needs to be temporary as I want him back in the rotation after the AS Break
    -We could conceivably use the combo of Hudson, Ponce, Gomber, Woodford to band aid the rotation until CMart and even Reyes arrive after the AS break
    -move Gorman up to AA…it might be too fast, but I say push him until he is overmatched then send him down to what works…he might just be far closer than we anticipated



    I don’t think there’s much you can do with the way the club is currently constructed unless you acquire talent via trade or FA and dump a couple players in the process.

    The rotation situation you proposed at the top is interesting.

    Is Helsley even starting in AAA?

    Maybe dropping Carp to 6th could ignite him. I think his career OPS is good in that slot.


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    Don’t know if you noticed but Gorman’s average has dipped to about .259.



    I am less than thrilled with Carp, and I am getting tired of that old story about late in the year. Get to Spring Training in December.

    The “Cardinal Way” doesn’t include striking out half the time or hitting directly into a shift over and over. I don’t get to watch most games. I look at the ESPN gamecast and see that we have runners on first and second and nobody out, even the bases loaded with nobody out. Then, I sit anxiously saying, “don’t strike out. Don’t strike out.” But, the hitter goes after a pitch that only a Rookie Leaguer might go after and strikes out, only to have the next hitter hit the perfect double play grounder on a dipping slider. I am so tired of guys not protecting the runner that I turn off the computer.

    Hit behind the runner.

    Don’t strike out with runners on base.

    Let the slider’s go or slap them to the opposite field with runners on base. This is amateur night. The hitting coach should be out there daily forcing them to hit to the opposite field until they never see a shift. The Cardinal Way was always to move runners around the base. I love Koltan. But, you just can’t keep hitting hard grounders to first and second.

    Carp, by now, I would have gotten your attention. We have some minor league third basemen with potential. You would be sitting while I found if any of them can go to bat without striking out. Don’t like it? Act like the mature pro you are supposed to be.

    Right now, I’m not angry with the pitching. I’m furious with guys who don’t think with a bat in their hands.


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    I am just putting my ideas forward.

    but responding…im not that worried about Gorman’s average…he is playing well enough to me to move up and see if he is overmatched

    I didnt put Helsley forward as as starting option

    Carp at 6 isnt bad…i just remember when he was in a funk a while back and he hit 8 i think and it reignited him

    I agree it may seem difficult to find ways to move the pieces around with what we have…but since we have seen pretty much every single aspect of the current team succeed at various times, then you have to think there is a formula that might bring it all together more consistently…

    We have enough parts in AAA to make for some moves, and we have enough upside impact additions for the rotation from within that we dont HAVE to look elsewhere…(Reyes, and CMArt for late season push is potentially pretty impactful)

    the hitters arent hitting….the rotation adn pen seem to be coming around…they may not be spectacular but the rotation isnt the reason we are losing as of late…it’s the hitters

    Carp hasnt hit his stride, Wong seems to fading, Bader never woke up, Goldy has been uneven, Gyorko hasnt had a shot….but each has shown good stretches…. to me that screams of at least lineup shake up…try it differently…do SOMETHING….we don’t have the kind of impact in AAA that we do in pitching…and EVERY position on the big league team seems to be filled with a vet who “CANT” be moved either due to status, upside, OR because they are actually playing well (Ozuna, Fowler, DeJOng, JMart, Yadi) so we have to do something with what we have…

    ONeill and Thomas seem like good sources for impact hitting…bUT we have no outfield spots to offer because the current OFers are playing well…and even if we considered JMart to 1b, we cant move Goldy off 1b…
    Wong isnt terrible with the bat and his defense forces him into the lineup…Munoz may offer a hotter bat but his glove doesnt play as well…and he isnt getting paid big money like Wong…Edman, Sosa, Schrock, Urias are all fine backup options but they arent impact to me at least not yet…Edman and Sosa are starting to look appealing though….and Gyorko may have the bat, but not the glove…and its not like he has been hitting…

    DeJong, Goldy, Yadi arent moving out of the lineup and we dont have better options anyways…

    that leaves 3b…which is basically the same as Wong at 2b…except the impact offensively is greater with Carp so he keeps playing…

    2b and 3b are the only real places we coudl add an impact bat…and internally we have a few decent options, but nothign for sure to make us better without sacrificing defense…at least at 2b

    Maybe we starting platooning Carp and Wong more…lefty righty splits maybe…Munoz and Gyorko getting more time….maybe straight platooning…equal time share for all 4 between 2b and 3b

    Even if we wanted to upgrade from outside our bats…we dont have much of an option without major implications to defense, money, and GM and ownership pride taking hits…

    If we tear it all down…there is no guarantee of success either…just maybe a few decent returns…but what value woudl we really get for who we woudl offer (as Goldy, DeJong, Yadi seem the only absolutely safe guys)

    They are all less than year options (Wieters, Ozuna), or guys getting paid a lot to be average…(Gyorko, Wong, Carp, Fowler)

    JMart might bring back a good amount if he could play better defense….but he cant so options for him elsewhere are limited thus less appealing and fruitful for return

    The team has clicked very well at times…which is why i think they shouldnt blow it up and fix via the outside…instead before they go nuclear they should shake things up…and try some optiosn with the talent they do have…and see if it sparks more consistency


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    I think I posted this in a different thread a few days ago.


    CF Fowler/Bader
    SS DeJong
    1B Goldy
    RF JMart
    C Molina
    3B Carp/Gyroko
    RF Ozuna
    2B Wong/Munoz

    I also like the idea of Yadi batting 2nd. I think Shildt did it last year right after he was hired. Yadi and DeJong could switch spots in my proposal.

    Remove Hudson and Wacha from the rotation.
    Hudson to Memphis and Wacha to the pen.
    Bring up Ponce and Gomber up for the rotation.
    Bring up CMart for the pen and send Leone and Webb down.

    Mikolas, Flaherty, Waino, Ponce, Gomber
    Hicks, Miller, Gant, Brebbia, CMart, Wacha, Gallegos, Gregerson

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by Avatargscottar.

    Molina’s OBP is .297….he should not bat second.



    Munoz can’t play defense well enough to be on the field. I think Martinez is better than people think, on offense and defense. Potential is there. Wong, just teach him to hit to the opposite field and leave him alone. Got a hitting coach? I’ve seen nothing of value in Gyorko this year. Bader needs to learn not to swing for the fences. Become a Willie McGee clone.

    I can see Bader/Wong as McGee/Flood, if we can teach them to hit to the opposite field and use their speed.

    Have our coaches forgotten how to teach the Cardinal Way?

    Brian WaltonBrian Walton

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    Uh, Willie is on the staff. I doubt he has forgotten, but the players have to be open to coaching. By the time they reach the majors, most have deep-set approaches.


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    Shildt said the other day that he didn’t want to over react or under react…hmmmmmm

    I think he has definitely done some under reacting. It might be time to try some over reacting instead of running the exact same lineup out there day after day after day.

    We all know what the definition of insanity is.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by Avatargscottar.
    Euro DandyEuro Dandy


    Something needs to be shaken up. Do something, even if it’s wrong. I think we’ve all heard that one before. Pull a Billy Martin and draw names out of a hat to determine the batting order. Continuing to bat Carp leadoff after 3 consecutive months of low production is asinine. However, I think tinkering with the lineup is just working on the margins and won’t solve the real problems longer term. But that’s all Shildt can do and the time has come for him to be more creative and proactive as jager suggests.

    So, jager is right that we need a shake up, but booyah is right that the target of the shake up should be on a broader and higher scope if the Cards are to be a serious post-season contender. I’ve grown exhausted of hearing all the talk but ineffective action on fixing things and focusing on defense and the Cardinal way yada yada yada . . . and many of the holes have been obvious year after year. Sure, it’s not easy, but the top dogs make huge bucks to get it done, and for a while now we’ve seen that year after year they fall short. Maybe they aren’t that good at it any more. You are what your record says you are and it’s looking like post-season is a long shot once again. This franchise should aim for championships, not almost making the wild card game.



    Euro…… Great post. I lost confidence in Mo long ago and what really galls me is living in Houston all my life and being a Cards fan since I was 8 years old seeing the Astros make moves that work like clockwork and breezing to another trip to the playoffs under you know who that used to be in St.Louis.
    Hard to take seeing my team just almost embarrass this proud franchise.


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    Something definitely needs to change. I am not sold on the team being blown up, as when it clicks it looks good out there.

    I am not against additions from outside, but I am not really convinced we dont have options internally that can help.

    Which is why I think it is shake up time, not blow up time.

    We have enough parts that CAN work let’s just reshuffle them and see what works or Euro said…even if it is wrong. It at least will tell you what is actually not working so outside help can be found if possible.

    So what are the options? internally and externally?

    Rotation needs fixing:
    – drop Hudson to AAA, and Waino and/or Wacha to pen, Call up Ponce and Gomber/(Woody), Leone to AAA
    – stretch out Reyes for starting, timetable after AS break
    – set plan for getting CMart back in rotation after AS break
    – sign Keuchel, move Hudson to AAA
    – trade for Stroman or MadBum (use ONeill as the big chip, i prefer Stroman with his extra year)

    – Leone to AAA
    – DFA Luke
    – bring up CMart
    – bring up Helsley
    – trade for Will Smith or Ken Giles

    – trade Gyorko and bring up young talent
    – Bring up Edman or Sosa
    – in another trade or alone try to find a change of scenery utility guy with upside (Profar?)

    – shake up the order drastically, see who flops and is offended and adjust from there, what is being done now is not working, and hurt feelings or expected spots in the order arent working so change it up
    – Use a straight timeshare between 3b/2b and Munoz, Gyorko, Carp, Wong until 2 of separate themselves

    These are the realistic options i see that could happen internally and externally that are not blowing it up and still responsibly using the talent the team has to compete now and moving forward

    For me personally I do the following:

    -Fowler, JMart, DeJong, Goldy, Ozuna, Yadi, Carp/Gyorko, Munoz/Wong
    -Hudson to AAA, Gomber up (i choose lefty for rotation for handedness)

    -Trade ONeill/Thomas + Ponce/Woodford + Mendoza + Shew to Jays for Stroman
    -Trade Gyorko to Yankees for a prospect, probably pitching at the AAA/high A level-ish (eat enough money to make the player worth it) yankees just lost Andujar for the year, and have had injury problems all year, a vet power hitter to play 2b/3b would be valuable for them even after injured player return

    -Move Waino to pen
    -Call up Edman
    -Reyes to SP recovery schedule

    Go with:
    -Fowler, JMart, DeJong, Goldy, Ozuna, Yadi, Carp/Edman/Munoz, Munoz/Wong/Edman
    -Mik, Jack, Stroman, Wacha, Waino…after AS break move Wacha and Waino to pen for CMart and Reyes
    -Wieters, Edman, Munoz, Bader
    -Hicks, CMart, Gant, Miller, Brebbia, Gallegos, Webb, Helsley…Waino and Wacha in after AS break for weakest link at the time

    -getting the trade for Stroman worked out isnt quick probably so, expect to have to cycle through Gomber, POnce, Woody, Hudson until it works itself out…
    -start with just Hudson to AAA, but send Waino then Wacha to pen if they struggle and use the kids in those spots if necessary…

    I know i am writing a lot lately…

    this topic is all i have been thinking about while watching the games lately…as they have been hard to get excited about what is actually happening in the game


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    Another guy who may be available at the deadline is Greinke. I say “may” because currently the Dbacks have a better record than the Cards so I don’t know if they are still in rebuild mode.

    Pros to Greinke:
    1. Still an elite pitcher.
    2. Controlled through 2021. Not a rental.
    3. Borderline hall of famer

    Cons to Greinke:
    1. Still owed a massive amount of money. Dbacks would have to pay some of it down.
    2. Flaky personality. I think he once even had some derogatory things to say about the Cardinals.
    3. He is 35.


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    I think it’s time to shake up the rotation. Move Wainright to the pen, send Hudson to Memphis to continue starting and get some confidence going. Bring up PDL and Gomber to start. Send Leone down, and recall Helsley. And release Gregerson, as he is not fooling anyone. Bench Carp for a few games. Add Edman to the roster, as he might be a spark plug.


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    True, Greinke and Ray both seem available…Greinke did just have an abdominal injury, i have no idea how severe it is, but it makes me think of oblique injuries and those can last the whole season…if he is healthy…and available (and with some money to make it more palatable then i say he is worth a look)

    All your points are right on though GSCott….

    would Keuchel on a 1yr deal for half the year be better or worse than a trade for more than rental types like Greinke and Stroman?

    I have not been for us looking at Keuchel…but he does only seem to cost money right now…and we have good prospects in the system for the rotation…

    Mik may never be last year good but he seems at worst a 3
    Jack has Ace stuff in him
    CMart at worst is a #3…if we stop acting like he is an Ace, it’s not like his contract is Greinke’s
    Reyes has Ace stuff, but at least is a 4 or 5 for next season
    Hudson seems a 2 at best..4 at worst as he matures
    Gomber and Ponce both are 5 at worst types
    Woodford might have #3 in him

    Maybe we just need a bandaid for the rotation this year…then get these guys more experience so they can all step up next year going forward…the kids just arent ready

    And as for Wacha and Waino…they just dont seem to have it consistently enough to not be moved to the pen…or moved on from… if they were vying for the 5 spot, you take it…but right now we have big questions marks for 3-5 in the rotation…and we at least have internal solutions/options for 2 of those spots…at the moment….get Reyes and CMart back in the rotation and we will be fine…get a bandaid like MAdbum or Keuchel and the same thing holds true

    Still…the rotation for as up and down it has been is not the problem…it is hitting…

    and we have no real spots for upgrades…seeing as 2b and 3b seem the only real options…but both are filled with guys the ownership have given carte blanche to be who they are…AND I am not exactly sure where the upgrades to those positions would even come from should we even look to that…there isnt a Kimbrel or Keuchel bandaid for 3b and 2b sitting out there waiting to be paid…

    Internally we have options with pitching…bullpen too…even bench

    but….I see no real solutions to the hitting problem with internal candidates…so that leaves reorganizing the lineup…period…and it should have happened last week

    If we start talking trades…that can go anywhere…


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    I understand the need for consistency and players understanding their roles. However, this does not mean you can’t make adjustments. The team is now more than 25% of the way through the schedule … the team is clearly in a funk. I think it is time for the manager to make some adjustments to the batting order, if not line up.

    The most important area of focus on offense should be to improve contact rates and cut down on strike outs. This team struggles to advance base runners at times. This issue coupled with a few base running gaffes have cost the team a few victories to this point.

    Line up adjustments:

    – Carp must be moved down … you cannot have a lead off hitter with such a low OBP … he stays lower in the order until he warms up
    – Goldschmidt needs to be moved down a slot with two of the higher OBP guys hitting in front of him. My instinct is that his production will improve when hitting with runners on base
    – The idea of platooning Carp/Gryko and/or Wong/Muñoz has some appeal to me. It helps with righty/lefty match ups and holds the potential to improve offensive output. I recognize that Muñoz is no Wong defensively, but I am thinking the improved offense will offset defensive shortfalls.

    Pitching is another discussion point.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by Avatar1964cards.
    Euro DandyEuro Dandy


    Just saw CMart was activated and Helsley recalled. Leone sent down and Gregerson DFA’d.


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    It would have been nice if Gregerson had been able to fill any role in the pen and contribute.But it looks like he could be at the end of the line.Leone still can help when he gets straightened out.Now continue to make some positive moves and get Edman on the roster.A bit of speed and a switch hitter adds versatility to the bench.Tyler Webb can be replaced too .I would like to see Hunter Cervenka get a shot as a LH reliever..

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by AvatarBw52.
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton

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    Cervenka has an ok ERA (3.00), but allowed two of four inherited runners to score. He has blown saves in both opportunities and a 1-2 record. That and 13 walks in 15 innings does not scream “promotion” to me.


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    I did not like the thought of Wainwright in the rotation from the beginning (meaning when they signed him for another year). He just seems better suited for the ‘pen at this stage of his career. Let’s put one of Ponce, Gomber or Helsley in the rotation and see what they can do, move Waino to the ‘pen, and move Hicks to Memphis as a starter. Such a waste having a young, golden arm sitting around in the bullpen when he could be gaining invaluable experience and building his endurance in AAA. Kind of akin to the smart kid in high school, who went to work in a local warehouse after graduation rather than go to college. Yeah, he will have more money in the next few years, but over his career he is much better off getting the training while still young.

    The only other change I make if I am running this club on the field is to shake up the batting order. I have posted a few suggestions. That and my broken record of having Carp work on putting the ball in play via the bunt to the left side at least once a game. He can do that from the 7th or 8th spot in the order.



    I’m not even concerned about the pitching at this time.. There is enough talent. A good pitching coach would be smart enough to say two words “throw strikes.” You get fined $10,000 for every walk that scores. Don’t like it? We will release you. Enough talent to win without you.

    The skeleton of the team is useless. You can’t hang a championship banner on this team. Horrible skeleton. Find anyone who wants Carp. I don’t want to hear about late in the year. By that time, we are out of the race. I really don’t want to see Gyorko or Munoz around.

    Sit down with Willie. Is he managerial material? Schild isn’t. Weak bandaide. I want someone who can work with Wong, DeJong, Bader, and Ozuna. They need to learn what NOT to do. If they want to stay in the majors, they need to learn how to hit. I don’t want anyone swinging at a slider in the dirt with runners on first and second and nobody out. You had better not hit into a DP or strike out.

    I check the minor league hitters as much for strikeouts as I do for average. Good hitters are difficult to strike out. They make things happen while others are on the bench. We get beat because other teams move runners over, and we don’t.

    I see this as somewhat of a rebuilding job, one that has been needed for a long time. We need to rebuild the skeleton before we keep throwing young pitchers away on guys who aren’t going to get us anywhere. A 34-year-old who strikes out 140 times belongs on the Mets of 1960.


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    The organization’s pitching staffs has been hit with several injuries that have resulted in some young pitchers being forced into higher levels that they may not be totally ready for.

    Schmid pitched a dandy in his trial with Peoria. We’ll see how the other guys do on their new teams.


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    Diz, I would have to disagree with the state of our pitching right now. It looks like a dumpster fire to me. Sure, we have a lot of “highly regarded” arms but highly regarded doesn’t mean squat if you don’t produce.

    Reyes is highly regarded but hasn’t done anything.
    Flaherty is highly regarded but is very inconsistent.
    Hudson is highly regarded but gets shelled regularly.
    CMart has highly regarded stuff but is inconsistent, often injured, and a head case.
    Wacha used to be highly regarded but is now toast.
    Mikolas had one good year in MLB and we now have to hope he can come close to replicating that.
    Waino is holding on the best he can but is at best a number 4 or 5 starter.
    Miller is past his prime but can be effective on occasion.
    Hicks is highly regarded and is living up to it. Good for him. I like him as closer.
    Oviedo is highly regarded and still has good potential.
    Helsley is highly regarded and still has good potential.

    Our most effective pitchers in the organization are “blue collar” types who either weren’t drafted high or weren’t projected to move very high in the system:

    Brebbia has been outstanding.
    Gant has been outstanding.
    Ponce is scuffling a bit in AAA right now but has always had good success in St. Louis.
    Gomber should have a short stay on the IL. He has been great at AAA.
    Woodford was a first rounder but doesn’t throw that hard. He has been outstanding.
    Shew has been outstanding.
    Fagalde has been outstanding.
    Parsons has been pretty good.

    The point of all of this is maybe the organization should adopt the model of drafting and developing elite position players and go with blue collar and free agent pitchers. Highly regarded pitchers just don’t seem to work for us.


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    RD – first, the Mets did not begin play until 1962.

    Next, nothing wrong with DeJong. He’s the MVP of the first two months.

    The “ skeleton” of this club is good. You have a solid lineup, but they need to get more consistency. Too much feast or famine so far.

    I would like to see a little more lineup adjustments, but once things start going well I prefer a set lineup.

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