Shake up time?

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This topic contains 61 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by Avatar RememberDiz 3 weeks, 5 days ago.

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  • #91124
    stlcard25
    stlcard25
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    CMart has highly regarded stuff but is inconsistent, often injured, and a head case.

    Which attributes make Carlos a “head case?” Is it that his stats are better in high leverage situations than in low or medium? How about that he gets better with men on base and then, with men in scoring position? That doesn’t exactly scream “head case” to me, but somehow he gets the label because he’s looser off the mound than some other guys (who pretty much all have worse stats and better proof of being exactly what Carlos is accused of).

    Perhaps you could ding him for losing focus occasionally, but mentally he is stronger than most on the mound.

    #91127
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    1964cards
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    #91130
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    Cardinal in France
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    1964: I like the thinking in that article.

    #91152
    bicyclemike
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    I like that “Four things” article, with a couple of exceptions. On Carpenter, I would not hit him fourth, but move him down to 6 or 7 in the order. And I would start Gyorko against lefties for awhile.

    Hudson looked pretty good last night. He was able to weather a stormy situation, not only the actual “weather”, but the middle innings when he gave up a couple of runs, without the usual meltdown. He was able to control the damage and get through it. With his minor league credentials, I think you need to stick with him and see what he can do.

    I 100% agree on Hicks. If you are going to have him on the roster, then use him when the time is best. And now with CMart available, there is even more flexibility to use Hicks in a wider role than just the ninth inning. Plus you have Gant and Brebbia who will likely be able to close out games. Miller could too, but his command has been poor, which seems to be a common affliction with Cardinal pitchers.

    #91155
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    Bw52
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    I am ready for a real shakeup.Enough with the bandaid approach.Find someone who will take Fowler even if Cards have to eat half his contract.He is sinking back to reality.look for a trade partner for Gyorko.I woulkdn`t mind seeing Carpenter,Wacha and Ozuna as trade bait.There are teams who might be interested in adding veteran strength or veteran SP.Enough running in place……..get younger and dump some stagnant veterans with big paychecks.

    #91164
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    gscottar
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    Which attributes make Carlos a “head case?”

    Where should I start? Granted some of these accusations are just that, accusations but it sure seems like he puts himself in position to be in trouble. And since he is a person and not a robot I have to think that these off the filed issues contribute to his often perceived lack of focus on the mound.

    However, his disregard of Mo’s plan for him this offseason is not an accusation. It happened.

    https://larrybrownsports.com/baseball/cardinals-president-carlos-martinez-throwing-program/485155

    https://www.mlb.com/news/carlos-martinez-twitter-incident-learning-experience-for-st-louis-cardinals/c-68334646

    https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/lawsuit-alleges-carlos-martinez-was-part-of-group-to-jump-break-back-of-victim/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3570166/St-Louis-Cardinals-pitcher-Carlos-Martinez-accused-knowingly-giving-STD-s-partner-1-5million-lawsuit.html

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Avatar gscottar.
    #91198
    bicyclemike
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    BW, with all due respect, your changes will be more suited for later in the year, if the club is still around .500 or worse.

    One thing not mentioned that has really hurt this club is Goldschmidt’s poor production. He was counted on to be a big bat in this order. I do not think hitting him second is the best option, but then he has not hit much anyway, at least not what he was brought here to do, so no matter where he had been it would not have helped.

    Personally, if I am Shildt I shake up the order a little. Put Goldy either 3 or 5.

    #91200
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    Bw52
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    BMike-IMO fixing the batting order is needed.Goldy batting 2nd is wasting him.He should be 4th .Ozuna 5th.Carpenter 6th Molina 7th.Wong 8th.JMartinez 2nd.Fowler/Bader leadoff.Still only a bandaid but worth trying .

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Avatar Bw52.
    #91204
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    mudville
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    Mike Maddux is getting exposed.

    #91219
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    gscottar
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    I don’t know what to think about this team. It is May 20 so it is too early to abandon ship but I have thought the last few years that this team needed a partial tear down or mini-rebuild. I’m not talking about a Marlins type strip down but we need some younger blood and fresh faces. I know that ownership is afraid that ticket sales would plummet but being stuck around .500 is not where you want to be.

    Personally I think the sooner we can move away from the Yadi-Carp-Waino era the better. Nothing against those guys because they are all future Cards hall of famers but we can’t continue to live in the past.

    If we are still stuck in the mud by July I would definitely see what we could get for guys like Ozuna, Wacha, Fowler, Miller, and maybe some others.

    #91235
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    thejager
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    Fowler has been one of the best players on the team so far…he has shown up when everyone including myself had written him off…i think there is something to be said for having a guy like that around
    Carp seems lost
    Ozuna is fine, he just isnt what we thought we were trading for
    Goldy is looking like what he is…the guy at the beginning of his decline
    Wong, great glove, so inconsistent with the bat makes him a tough guy to move on from (similar to BAdeR)
    Yadi is great, he may be one of the only things holding the team together
    JMart is what he is, a hit first DH playing mediocre to poor RF defense for cheap

    what value can you get for these parts?
    -Carp? why take on his salary and middling defense…maybe a good low level prospect
    -Fowler? no one will pay even half of his salary even with his good play recently…if we ate the whole salary, maybe we get a mid level low end prospect
    -Wong? might get an upper level low ceiling prospect, but his salary might vut that out
    -Ozuna? probably get something decent but with limited upside for a rental…if we wait to the deadline….maybe raise it up a bit
    -Gyorko? eat the salary…get a low level prospect…don’t lottery ticket
    -JMart?…decent prospect from an AL team with no DH…but who? DH’s are a plenty, and after that signign they did of him and all the positive praise it got there is no way they move him unless they are overwhelmed…
    -Yadi isnt going anywhere
    -Goldy isnt going anywhere
    -Miller? why woudl someone even want him and his salary? and the FO woudl have to admit they are wrong…which won’t happen…they cant even do it with Cecil and it took Gregerson far too long for them to admit those mistakes…he is here for better or worse

    If you want to move players from the team to get anything decent back, you have to move the players that you want to build around….which is counterproductive

    Our best shot is mixing thelineup around, and maybe trading a few young pieces to get a higher end starter with control…or just sign Keuchel as a band aid for a season. Maybe you can move Ozuna at the deadline…maybe you can get something nice for Reyes if you want to consider him a piece worth moving…but it probably wont be the value you think you can get internally so you probably hold him

    our best trade pieces seem to be:
    Oneill and Thomas (Assuming Carlson is the guy we are truly waiting on)
    1-2 of the young SPs…Gomber, Ponce, Hudson, Woodford
    Ozuna late
    Gyorko..even for a little he isnt worth the salary and id rather see what the kids have (Edman)
    1 high end youngster like Helsley or Reyes
    we also have a glut of young OFers we could lose, but get middling returns (Garcia, Arozarena, Williams)

    As I said before my solutions:
    -keep shifting the lineup until someone gets going in a new role
    -I find a way to get Stroman and his extra year of control (ONeill/Thomas + Woodford + Mendoza?)
    -trade Ozuna at the deadline (or ahead if a good offer is there)
    -trade Gyorko and eat the salary to get something decent
    -call up Edman and go to 4 player platoon at 2b and 3b, Carp, Wong, Edman, Munoz
    -Call up Thomas/Oneill
    -move Waino/Wacha to pen call up POnce or Gomber
    -get Reyes and CMart back into starting shape for 2nd half..to take 2 of the rotation spots…
    -consider a trade for a lefty in the pen, or closer type..Will Smith ideally, but look at Romo or any vet reliever from a bad team
    -just try to stay close until after the AS break and hope that an influx of Cmart, Stroman, Reyes into the rotation makes that good, and that the lineup changes and young hitters getting an opportunity makes for excitement, to pair with some bigger names finally figuring it out

    for 2020 roll:
    Fowler, Goldy, DeJong, JMart, Yadi, Carp/Edman/Munoz, Bader/Oneill/Thomas, Wong/Munoz/Edman
    (prep for Wong to be gone after the year)
    (prep for Carlson)
    (prep for Knizner post Yadi)
    (prep for Montero or Gorman)
    (prep for extension for Stroman or his loss and Hudson coming up)
    Mik, Stroman, Jack, CMart, Reyes
    Hicks, Helsley, Miller, Brebbia, Gallegos, Webb, Leone, Gant
    Edman, Knizner, Bader/Oneill/Thomas, Edman/Carp/Wong/Munoz

    2021 is still transition a bit… and 2022 is the real change as Fowler, Carp, Yadi, Wong, would all undoubtedly be gone

    maybe?:
    Carlson, Knizner, DeJong, Goldy, JMart(DH in NL now), Gorman(3b), ONeill/Thomas, Bader, Edman(2b)
    Mik, Jack, Cmart, Reyes, Hudson

    #91237
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    14NyquisT
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    The Mets are treading water and in desperate need for a RH outfielder. Ozuna would be a great fit in NY and we could get a Steve Matz in return and possibly RP Lugo which which might require one of our prospects.

    We’d get ourselves a lefty starter to take some pressure off of Hudson and also get a solid arm for the pen. Bader and O’Neill are chomping at the bit to move up.

    Ozuma will be gone anyway.

    #91238
    stlcard25
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    Where should I start? Granted some of these accusations are just that, accusations but it sure seems like he puts himself in position to be in trouble. And since he is a person and not a robot I have to think that these off the filed issues contribute to his often perceived lack of focus on the mound.

    A 20-21 year old makes bad decisions and lacks maturity? You don’t say!

    I’m not arguing that Carlos doesn’t occasionally lacks focus or even that he’s not immature at times…but his play on the field is hardly indicative of being a head case. I believe that’s a trope being pushed by people who give breaks to pitchers like Wacha, Flaherty, Luke Weaver when he was here…all of whom have inferior results and crack under pressure regularly, which has pretty much never been an issue with Cmart.

    #91242
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    Bw52
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    The smart move is keeping ONeill and Thomas.You dont trade 23 year old OFs without at least giving them real chances to show their talent.Ozuna is likely gone after the season….Fowler is fools gold and sinking back to reality.Carpenter …blah……..Gyorko..?Wacha…..someone would give something for him..pitching always in demand.
    bandaids aren`t going to fix this team….IMHO you deal some veterans and stockpile prospects..they might not be big ranked prospects but you get some youth and salary relief.
    Running in place around .500 isn`t accomplishing anything.Bite the bullet and get some younger hungry players instead of fading veterans.

    #91244
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    gscottar
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    Jager, I think you pinpointed our biggest problem by saying that other teams wouldn’t want a majority of our players. The fact that the majority of our players, especially some of the higher priced ones, have such little trade value is indicative of the situation we are in.

    #91260
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    thejager
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    GScott…which is why i think you have to go with them and find a way for them to figure it out…which means changing lineups at the very least

    Fowler was given a month to figure it out by the fanbase…he showed up… Carp has done this 3 years ai na row…GOldy is now on 2 in a row…we can’t have key parts of the lineup scuffling like this…no matter the egos involved

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by Avatar thejager.
    #91264
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    gscottar
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    I agree that Shildt needs to shuffle the lineup. Why he doesn’t do it is baffling to me.

    But I still feel that if we are going nowhere by the deadline we shop some of our veterans around to see if there any other takers. Even if the return is minimal we could free up some salary and roster spots for a fresh start in 2020.

    #91266
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    Ratsbuddy
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    I agree the lineup isn’t constructed right. In my opinion this is what we need:

    1) Bader
    2) Fowler
    3) DeJong
    4) Goldfinger
    5) Ozuna
    6) Molina
    7) Carpenter
    8) Wong

    If Carpenter cant handle hitting 7th then the heck with him. He cant hit in the #3 slot and its obvious he cant hit in the leadoff spot as well. He is about useless anymore.

    This lineup gives us some speed at the top with Bader. If he can hit .250 that’s a lot better than what we get from Carpenter. I think Fowler has earned the #2 spot but his average is dipping so only time will tell there.

    r/Esteemed Rat

    #91269
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    gscottar
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    The timing on Carp’s extension doesn’t look very good right now.

    #91279
    stlcard25
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    The timing on Carp’s extension doesn’t look very good right now.

    I totally agree. I really like Carp, but he’s been playing with fire the last two years and who knows if he’s gonna break out of it this year. He would be a potentially attractive trade chip without the big contract.

    #91281
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    PugsleyAddams
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    You see a lot, Esteemed Rat.

    #91354
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    14NyquisT
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    Callaway said he was unhappy with Cano’s hustle this weekend in Miami, where the second baseman twice did not run out ground balls.

    I saw the replays of Cano’s jaunts to first… very disturbing. We have our own problem with one of our esteemed veterans and that’s something that drives me crazy. This happens on double play grounders and infielders know they all the time in the world. I have never condoned this but it seems Card’s managers (TLR, MM and now polyanna) and fans are alright with it.

    It just seems contrary to the way the game should be played.

    #91361
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    thejager
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    YAY!! it has been a while since someone attacked Yadi for not running to 1st, probably like .001% of the time

    If playing the game means not taking into account your age and the situation and doing cost benefit analysis of how important that POSSIBLE (BUT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE) 2 out infield single, when you are not fast to begin with, and your best value at this point in your career doesnt come from potentially being on base as much as it does you staying in the game thus not gambling on blowing out your hamstring then sure..

    What Cano did was pretty bad, but he is in a funk and I get the frustration

    I didnt see MAchado or HArper sit when they do the same things….and i definitely didnt hear people not still wanting them on their teams when it came to possibly signing them

    #91367
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    Bw52
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    Ah yes..THe Yadi apologists give him a free pass.The rose colored Molina glasses with another excuse for no-hustle.He should be setting a example instead of being the semi-manager dictating playing time and half-assing to 1B.Play the right way or get the hell out.No excuse for half-ass.

    #91368
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    Ratsbuddy
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    Molina doesn’t walk on water like a lot of Cardinal Nation believes.

    r/Esteemed Rat

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