- This topic has 103 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 7 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
“They must be willing to accept lower attendance….”
——
A self proclaimed reset was the first admission of accepting lower attendance, but stadium revenue can’t just fall off the books as a back burner item.How much is Bill willing to let ticket sales crater, and how early in the season? Is the trade return of Helsley diminished that much by waiting until the deadline? He could also just let Mo decide Helsley’s fate 👀
Another related line of thinking…
Do people come to games just to see Helsley? Probably not.
But do they come to games hoping to see a win? Of course. How important is Helsley to that outcome?
Helsley’s WAR is not a huge swinger one way or the other. But if they can’t find an adequate replacement and blow a lot of close winnable games early, it could cause a team on the edge to tip hard in the wrong direction.
How important is that 2025 impact to DeWitt and Mo?
Carrying this line of thinking a bit further, it suggests they might wait until well into the 2025 season before trading him (or not). How much greater would the return be now vs. later?
A recent example of a top closer with similar experience being traded is when the Brewers sent Josh Hader to San Diego. It was done in 2022 with a year and a half remaining before free agency, so more time than Helsley has.
Milwaukee received four players in return for Hader.
– LHR Trevor Rogers left as a free agent two months later.
– RHP Dinelson Lamet was DFAed immediately.
– LHP Robert Gasser made five MLB starts last year. The 25 y/o is the #10 Brewers prospect.
– CF Esteury Ruiz was SD’s 28th ranked prospect and was soon traded again, to the As. Stole a lot of bases before getting hurt. Negative WAR so far for his career.Pretty clear that the team that got the best player in the trade fared best. But, maybe Mo can get a better take for Helsley… 😉
You are right, Brian, that an elite closer doesnt have the same value as a sp or an everyday player. And If we couldn’t get a better return than the Brewers got for Hader than why trade. But again, as I mentioned, you have to get a BUNCH of prospects moving thru. Most don’t pan out.
Not saying they shouldn’t try to trade him, but thinking that the return for Helsley would be a major fix for the farm system probably is not realistic.
KCB, I really like your posts of the last couple of days. You speak the absolute truth when you say that keeping guys like Helsley around right now is how we got in this mess in the first place. It most certainly is.
The Cardinals are addicted fence straddlers. They just can’t help themselves.
“We have to win every year. We have to be competetive every year to keep the turnstiles clicking.”
“Wait a minute that isn’t working according to Bloom’s report. Let’s do a reset, go with younger guys, restock the farm, then try to win again in a couple of years.”
“Wait a minute if we do too hard of a reset we might lose 90 games and fans will stay away in droves. Let’s actually try to reset AND win the division at the same time. We can do this right??”
UGH!!!!!!!!!! Just pick a lane and go with it!!!!!!
It is obvious they need a one or more likely two year reset. It is also obvious that the reason they are now getting cold feet is because of Mo, not Bloom. BDW should have just done an immediate transition to the new PBO. Instead we are going to have some kind of lame hybrid 2025 then Bloom will have start the actual reset in 2026.
Agreed G.Mo is going to postpone the inevitable if he is allowed to. At least that’s what it is sounding like. It doesn’t matter to me. I like going to Springfield and Memphis.
Funny stuff GS.
Mo’s lame duck status gets too much credit. Mo has the job of announcing Bills plans.A scenario could be take last year’s Memphis closer, who turned out to be Loutos after he supposedly tweeked his repertoire, and make him the 8th inning guy. If he looks good, then they can move Helsley at the deadline. It just has to be good enough for the team to not crater. Its a reset year.
By this time next offseason the financials can be reset but that’s 12 months away. The 90 win club may have a first half to enjoy.
Extend him and still trade him at the deadline if the trade offer is a player that very likely will eventually help the team. It makes no sense to trade Helsley’s added 10 wins for a group of players that are never going to be contributors at the major league level.
Well of course not because he will not be in STL beyond 2025.
No Extension Talks Between Cardinals, Ryan Helsley https://t.co/YiDwkrAR14 pic.twitter.com/hBRUe3vbvP
— MLB Trade Rumors (@mlbtraderumors) January 18, 2025
As relayed by Jeff Jones of the Belleville News-Democrat, Helsley indicated that he was actually under the impression he’d be getting traded this winter when the offseason began. The righty added that when his camp heard from president of baseball operations John Mozeliak about six weeks after the season ended and was told the Cardinals plan to hold onto him this winter, he initially believed the call was to inform him of a trade.
How disfunctional is the Cardinals front office?
Part of Helsley’s belief that he was ticketed for a trade this winter is based on the fact that there’s “never been any talk about extensions” between his camp and the Cardinals, he indicated. As noted by Jones, Helsley made clear that he would love to stay in St. Louis beyond the end of his time under team control but called negotiations a “two-way street” before adding that “if only one side wants [an extension], it’s not going to work out.”
The only reason the Cardinals should even entertain keeping Helsley is if they are going to try to extend him.
I hope DeWitt sees how bad the Cardinals look in all of this and just cans Mo.
What Mo also said is that he is trying to keep the books clean going into 2026 for ownership and Bloom to decide how they want to structure the team going forward.
I continue to doubt free agent Helsley would be in their price range, no matter who is running baseball ops. I quoted Hader’s contract as a comp the last time this came up. Today, Helsley mentioned Minter’s and LeClerc’s deals as encouraging to him.
It appears that trying to be competitive in 2025 is more important to the Cardinals than trading Fedde and Helsley. Maybe if they crater, that will change in July.
It appears that trying to be competitive in 2025 is more important to the Cardinals than trading Fedde and Helsley. Maybe if they crater, that will change in July.
Yes, by their actions the Cardinals are neither trying to be real good this year, nor totally committed to a rebuild. They are trying to balance a fine line of lowering their costs, but still being good enough that if things go right they could compete for a post season berth.
Sometimes though, when you try to accomplish multiple goals, rather than getting one thing right and letting the others go, you do nothing right. It will be an interesting season. Most of us do not expect our club to be very good, but there are numerous examples of teams not predicted to compete that end up being quite good. Looking close to home, two of our best teams ever, the 1967 and 1985 clubs, were both that way.
The Dodgers signed Tanner Scott. Plenty of teams were in on him and that could open the door for another club upping the anti for Helsey.
The “competitive” lingo boils down to ticket sales and the stadium revenue stream next season.
There are roster players who can be traded with no impact to the gate, and then there’s Helsley.
Sometimes though, when you try to accomplish multiple goals, rather than getting one thing right and letting the others go, you do nothing right
Very true Mike. Half measures are what led us to be in this predicament in the first place.
Very true Mike. Half measures are what led us to be in this predicament in the first place.
The difference is that some believe we will never take a full measure again.
As long as these owners are in place they will NEVER take full measure again. They may not even go half-measure. I can see no-measure, with all AAA players out there and a self-imposed salary cap of 100 million. We’ll be the A’s of the NL Central. There’ll still be enough fans and TV money for Junior to make a nice profit.
Cardinals, Helsley not discussing extension (CBS sports/mlb)
The Cardinals and closer Ryan Helsley have had no discussions about a long-term extension, the pitcher said at the team’s Winter Warm-Up event Saturday (via the Belleville News-Democrat). “Never really been any talk about extensions or anything like that. (I want to stay), but, you know, at the same time, it’s a two-way street, and if only one side wants it, it’s not going to work out,” Helsley said.I do agree waiting until trade deadline makes sense for helsley. Only though if helsley is healthy. Though other teams it would probably be better for them if they make a deal before then. If the cardinals are struggling record wise at the deadline, i see them holding out for a team offering better prospects. A team that doesnt have lots of prospects would be better off trying to get him before. Then the cardinals have to decide whether to take the offer early or wait til deadline for a better offer which could backfire due to injury.
Helsley would probably be able to get similar money and years that Scott got, no way the Cardinals are paying that so it’s probably a matter of when he is traded and not if….of course the X factor is injury. If they wait till the deadline they could limit his appearances some
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.