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All teams start the new season tied for middle of the pack, at 0 – 0, lol. But yeah, we know that a lot of our guys are going to be at least a little worse next year, and it is unclear who will be a lot better (certainly not Helsley). I guess the question is ‘was that Helsley’s breakout year, or the top’?
They could make all this chatter a moot point by signing Juan Soto, and then we’re instantly a contender for at least a wildcard spot. Unfortunately, that’s not too likely.I’d guess that the present-day manner in which teams qualify for a post-season berth was set up by the league with the purpose of giving the impression to every team’s fanbase that they instantly have a chance for at least a WC spot. And that concept is probably a reality until around mid July. I’d say whether or not that’s good or bad is entirely up to mindset of each individual. I don’t neccessarily like it unless it’s 2011…
I would definitely be talking to teams about a deal for Helsley. The team will more than likely not be post season quality in 2025, and Ryan’s value is close to as high as it will be. Perfect time to move him.
Its too bad the team flat lined right as Helsley is hitting his prime. But we need a top shelf 3B or CF prospect more than a closer who is about to get expensive.
I agree that we should not trade Helsley. It would cost the Cardinals at least 10 wins, and a lot of pain.
However, the Orioles opportunity to win it all will not be open forever, and they have a strong farm system. If they can find a way to satisfy the Cardinals in a trade for Helsley, the Cardinal should probably take the risk.
Helsley’s value is peaking right now. He has had injury issues in the past. It will be hard, if not impossible, to replace the level of productivity they got from him last season.
This team is in transition. You hold him or sign him to a long-term deal if the team is an odds-on favorite to win the Division or the League. You take on too much risk to hold him until the trade deadline to see what happens. I would shop him and see what interest you garner. You trade him if you get the offer you are looking for or something better.
I agree, 1964. Since the Cards are trying to retool while spending less, they need better athletes who make lower salaries. The draft is too slow and they aren’t going to spend the money in free agency. The quickest answer is to trade their most desirable assets who aren’t part of the long term plans. Since Gray and Contreras have confirmed their contractual right to stay, that leaves Helsley and Arenado.
Seems to me that those who want to keep them are hoping to continue the current and failed approach of playing it down the middle. Hoping the same players get better is necessary but not sufficient, IMO.
Something has to change and you have to trade value to receive value in return. It is likely to mean a step backward for the team in the short term, but it would seem to increase their odds to get better over the long haul.
Helsley is as good as gone after the 2025 season, anyway. How would it matter if they win 80 vs. 83 games next season? (Helsley’s fWAR last season was 2.3 and his bWAR was 3.0.)
P.S. The only problem I see in the above (which may be a big problem) is that 2025 is Mo’s last season and I really believe he does not want it to end on a down note (so, continue the current approach of playing it down the middle).
Gray and Contreras have confirmed their contractual right to stay,
That doesn’t mean they will in fact stay. It does mean it will likely be more expensive to buy out their NTC. Nobody should be shocked if their agents have them playing it that way. Its business.
I have Fedde and Helsley in the same bucket. Rentals, comparable salaries and best tradable assets. Arenado, Mikolas and Matz, who have no positive value to sell off, in another bucket.
I agree with 1964 and Brian. Trading Helsley right now is a no brainer. A team in transition doesn’t need a lockdown closer whose value will never be as high it is now. Get as much as you can for him now.
IF they don’t move Helsley and Arenado and Fedde and hopefully Gray and Contreras for prospects, and IF Gorman and Walker bust, this organization is looking at 5 plus years of suck. I just don’t think some people realize how critical it is that they don’t maximize the value of these players while the opportunity is there. Keeping them here is just more wasted value and cash.
On the “trade Helsley” bandwagon as well, if you can get some good younger players. We played for one year at time for some 10 years or so, and the clock finally ran out. The older stars went past their prime and no replacement slightly less older stars were brought on board. Well I guess Gray and Contreras fit that description, but they have not had enough help from the young guys.
Max out what you can and make it a goal to be a division winner in ‘26 or ‘27 and beyond. And if somehow everything falls in place next year, be thankful.
The key is receiving at least one prospect in return who is MLB ready and considered ‘can’t miss’. I don’t want to trade away 10+ wins for 2 or 3 players like Chase Davis, Michael McGreevy, Jimmy Crooks, Thomas Saggese. I’m not knocking those players, but at this point, none of them looks like a game changer. Helsley is a game changer for the right team.
The key is receiving at least one prospect in return who is MLB ready and considered ‘can’t miss’. I don’t want to trade away 10+ wins for 2 or 3 players like Chase Davis, Michael McGreevy, Jimmy Crooks, Thomas Saggese. I’m not knocking those players, but at this point, none of them looks like a game changer. Helsley is a game changer for the right team.
I agree with you Mud. Unfortunately, elite relievers don’t have the same trade value as elite starters or elite everyday players. We may have to bundle Helsley with another player or 2 (Fedde, Herrera, Gray, Contreras) to get the return we need.
KeepComingBack,
I agree about looking at around 5 years of not being very good. I’ve said the very same thing a handful of times on this forum. It is very possible we turn out to be what the Reds and Pirates have been for quite awhile now.r/Esteemed Rat
I once endured 13 consecutive seasons without a solitary Cardinal post-season game, so 5 seasons of not being very good seems almost like a drop in the proverbial bucket. However, at 67 years of age, I’m getting long in the tooth and a person never really knows when they’ll kick the bucket…Haha!
We’re the same age Dom. We have a lot left to do. Bucket kicking isn’t on my list. But I don’t want to wait that long. It isn’t necessary if we don’t screw the pooch by not playing our cards right. We can be fun to watch next year and possibly compete at some level by 26. But the right buttons have to be pushed.
Ive been on the trade helsley train for a while. If not for the team, for helsley then. He deserves the chance to go to somebody who is hoping to compete and have a chance of earning a big payday for himself. Closers have such a short window usually.
I don’t like the idea of trading Helsley. But the Cardinals might do it in order to move Arenado’s contract. I could see Helsley and Arenado going to LA for one year of Muncy and prospects. Muncy has one year remaining on his current contract at $14.5M plus a team option for an additional year at $10M. If Muncy has a no trade clause, he will likely demand that the additional year is guaranteed and that could be a deal killer.
One thing for sure is that there is definitely a need for a player like Helsley by multiple teams, including the Cardinals.
News from Ken on Ryan Helsley, who was projected at the start of the offseason to be a top trade candidate.
Now? Not so fast.
“It’s something we will always remain open-minded to, but our plan is to have (Helsley) be part of our organization,” — John Mozeliak #STLCards https://t.co/B8oF5LHIXq
— Katie Woo (@katiejwoo) December 5, 2024
The NL Central is a weak division. And it would get weaker if Adames would depart Milwaukee.
If alot of our question marks should do okay in 2025 there’s no reason St. Louis can’t contend for an NL Central title. Maybe keeping Helsley is the smart thing to do. At least until late July.
r/Esteemed Rat
Two years people say we will contend, we will be in the hunt. Both years i said no we wouldnt. Not tooting but both years i was right, the hows dont matter. We were a little better last year than i thought but we didnt sniff the playofds and i see no reason why we will this year. But i guess sone just need to be optimistic to get by but im a realist not an optimist. I think more than likely we finish 4th at best assuming no major additions. I believe milwaukee will be ok, reds will be better, and cubs will probably be better though than pains me to say. Pittsburgh is pittsburgh so we might outlast them. Will the ten wins people assume helsley gives us matter, i dont think so. No real difference between 80 to 83 wins vs 70 to 73 wins unless you are betting on where they finish. I think its more likely mo is intentionally sabotaging the team as opposed to going out on a high. I also question a comment not the commenter who said 10 supposed wins by helsley is better than another guy thats on the team like mcgreevy, saggeesee, etc. This team is pretty much those guys esp if arenado is gone or gets worse which is probable. If you think this team may make the playoffs with those guys, then having one more is just going to be better. Closers like helsley you cant really count on being ypu have to have leads to make them valuable and hes due for an injury. Just my thoughts.
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