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God what a disappointing hire. Nothing more than a yes man for MO. Anyone that believes MO that this wasn’t a yes man hire has to have been drinking Busch products. To bad MO didn’t fire himself.
“In my mind if Marmol continues to bat Goldschmidt 2nd then, well, let’s just say that isnt good.”
Rat,
We’ve agreed on quite a bit of line-up construction stuff since I came here, but I will disagree with you here slightly. It matters who else is around. I didn’t have a problem with Goldschmidt hitting 2nd. He has a good OBP, he’s a good base runner, O’Neill was hitting well behind him. I have zero problem hitting Goldschmidt 2nd, but I’d like to see a LH bat between him and Arenado. I expect regression out of O’Neill. I hope he can still be productive, but his K% smells regression to me and hitting 5th to me with Carlson or even Edman behind him is fine. I say Edman because he has one of of lowest K% in baseball and hits his doubles.
Which brings me to this “philosophy”. Albert is a big believer in pulling everything with launch angel, maybe Marmol is a believer in that too while Schildt saw what he had (Goldschmidt, Arenado, especially Edman) that being gap to gap line drive hitters and taking the HR when they come works better. Holliday was that same kind of hitter and there is definitely a lot of Holliday in Arenado’s swing.Card4Ever – You make a great point. Mo holds the manager accountable for utilizing analytics to make the proper lineup and in-game decisions. And yet he makes financial moves that don’t make sense. He doesn’t own it and BDW doesn’t seem to hold him accountable for it.
As far as Goldy hitting second, the results are the tell. Stick with what works, change what doesn’t work.
If I ever get excited about the direction of the Cardinals, I just pop in here to get a large dose of negativity, to bring me back down. Then I remind myself that even during our last 2 world series runs, there was more negativity on here towards ownership and the front office, than there was positivity and I am reminded why I chose to stay away for so long.
Hope you don’t go underground for years on end yet again, Pork. You’re a poster with personality……hate to lose you.
It is disappointing to see posters drive others away, but I get it. Some see every glass as half empty or worse, which can be tiring at times, taking effort just to bring the discussions back to level ground. Even so, my hope is that everyone feels welcome here to respectfully express their thoughts – positive or negative.
I find it far more disappointing that people who can’t handle negativity are lauded as something more than pathetic.
Just read the Danny Mac article on the Marmol hire.
He’s over the moon in favor of it and gives good reasons the main one being that through the two managers after LaRussa have continued to win at the third best clip.
There were other reasons given but that one was his cherry on top.
Sure, the raw numbers are what they are but the Cardinal’s way of building a ball club isn’t the only viable way.
Other clubs like the Red Sox use a more roller coaster method that has more peaks and valleys.
Yes, the Cardinals made the playoffs the last three years after missing for three straight but those three lead to no pennants.
Two of three were early exits and the NLCS year in 2019 was a 4-0 whitewashing.
My point is that there is more than one viable way to accomplish the mission with the end goal to add division and league championships (pennants) its not to maintain an overall .545 winning percentage and then cherry pick that stat.
As I said earlier, picking Marmol as the manager has very little to do with whether the Cards win or lose moving forward – its all about the players. I could have managed any number of the great Yankees teams to victory.
I don’t care all that much who the manager is but to say that Marmol was picked for any reason other than he’s going to run the team exactly the way the FO wants it run is disingenuous. Maybe that is ok and how it usually should be but let’s not pretend otherwise.
The bottom line is that even though we talk about leadership in the managerial position, most of the decision making is now made after consulting their tablets. It’s a pass through that Mo wanted with all the information generated by the
organization’s younger baseball analysts. It is what it is. I’m just looking forward to Winter Warmup, Spring Training, and hopefully the start (on time) of a brand new season. We should have a very solid ball club.One other thing was interesting in the presser. Mo said that they could see that Oli would be a good manager someday, they just didn’t think he would get his chance so soon. That seems to say 2 things. There was blowup at the end between Mo and MS that caused a quick breakup, and Oli isn’t really ready but they feel he can learn fast on the job with all the information available to him.
Until the FO proves us wrong this is on Mo and his people. Fix the roster this off-season with key additions like legit SS etc or get ready for more average baseball. Watching from Texas like I have since 1966.
Let’s see how Marmol gains the respect of some of the vets. I think that he should at least be given the benefit of the doubt. Geez, he hasn’t made one visit to the mound and already there’s a lot of blowback. I think the negativity is aimed at the failures of the FO. Folks are angry with how the team is run….. with good reason. Marmol is taking the flak which really isn’t fair. I say “good luck” Oli…. in a good way. He is one of our guys.
14 –
I wouldn’t worry about respect from the everyday position players. The vets like Yadi, Goldschmidt, Arenado and the younger players like Edman, Carlson, O’Neill, Bader, etc. are going to be in there most of the time and in-game decisions really aren’t going to be affecting them that much. Especially since they are all good defensive players and it will be rare that they are replaced with a defensive substitution late in a game. Or being pinch hit for. It’s how Oli handles the pitching staff that’s going to be interesting. What is he going to do if Waino is going well through 5 or 6 innings but the data says to take him out because of the 3rd time through the lineup syndrome? Or with Mikolas in the same scenario. Or Hudson.
bccran said:
One other thing was interesting in the presser. Mo said that they could see that Oli would be a good manager someday, they just didn’t think he would get his chance so soon. That seems to say 2 things. There was blowup at the end between Mo and MS that caused a quick breakup, and Oli isn’t really ready but they feel he can learn fast on the job with all the information available to him.
The first point was made crystal clear when Mo said that when the team left LA after the Wild Card Game, he was not expecting to make a managerial change.
On the second point, I asked Mo about the bench coach – whether he would go internal or seek an outside voice. I hope they put some years of experience in the dugout next to the 35-year-old Marmol. I doubt he would do it, but I would call Jose Oquendo ASAP. Granted, he isn’t external, but could be a good compromise for the front office.
I hope they put some years of experience in the dugout next to the 35-year-old Marmol. I doubt he would do it, but I would call Jose Oquendo ASAP.
They got rid of all the experience.
I would love to see Oquendo as bench coach if he would do it.
Other candidates will be :
Skip Schumaker
Stubby Clapp
Pop Warner
Matt Holliday
Ben JohnsonFolks, look at it like this. At least we didnt end up with Ozzie Guillen as our manager..:)
r/Esteemed Rat
Those would be internal candidates, gscottar, but none have managed in the majors before. I would prefer a grizzled MLB managerial veteran who isn’t interested in the job top now – a Joe Torre, Bobby Cox, Jim Leyland, Bruce Bochy kind of guy. Probably not attainable, but I still remember how well Don Zimmer worked under Torre in NY. And Torre wasn’t 35 years old and had already managed two other MLB teams.
Brian –
I’ve thought about the old grizzled managers, but I don’t think that’s what they’re looking for. Oli is going to follow the analytics. The older guys may want to go with their vast experience. It might have the makings of a conflict and what Mo would want to stay away from. To him the future is with the modernistic analytics oriented younger guys.I’d give Marmol all the support he needs, until he proves us wrong. I do like his initial comments that the goal is to win the WS and anything less is a disappointment. That’s a good start in my book. And as many of us on this board have had decades of experience in the workplace, the way that the veteran players – Waino, Yadi, Arenado, Goldy, and Lester and Happ if they return – treat Marmol will set the whole player/manager relationship. Marmol may be well liked by the players, but he has yet to make decisions that affect their play on the field. The veterans will need to back him up if he’s going to succeed, and my guess is they will. We do have a very mature team, not just in age. Looking forward to the spring!
Yeah I dont think Marmol will get to pick any of ‘his’ coaching staff.
Mo should have just named himself Manager and been done with it.
If he stocks the roster with enough talent it won’t matter who the manager is.
If not I give you Casey Stengel and the ’62 Mets. Stengel was about as good as the team he was provided.
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