June 20, 2022 at 10:08 pm #188674forsch31ParticipantFree
bc, I think if you make a list of the best managers of all time in baseball, the number of them who could be in the hall of fame based on their “on the field play”, would be very small.June 20, 2022 at 11:32 pm #188682Bob ReedParticipantFree
“Well Bob I always try to be somewhat nice. For me to say he stinks, we would have to be down behind the Pirates.”
It’s true I’m pretty un-nice, Willie, at least when considering people in public jobs who make 7-figure salaries. With them I tend to be merciless, if I feel strongly that they do not deserve to keep those jobs, or get them in the first place. Jobs that carry huge money & prestige should not go to the dolts of the world, whether in politics, sports or elsewhere. I admit I’m fairly fanatical about sports being as close as it gets to a true meritocracy in this life. (It’s one of the reasons I can’t stomach the steroid cheats, in baseball, bike racing, or anywhere else.) When I see anti-meritocracy it galls me.
I’ll say this, though. If I felt that ANY other individual or organization on the internet or off it was giving Marmol the scrutiny/criticism he deserves this season, I would be much less inclined to take such a belligerent tone toward the Boy Manager. Either his youth or race or inexperience or something else has insulated him from even cursory analysis.
Even the moronic use of Pujols against righties has gotten no Post-Dispatch attention whatsoever that I’ve seen — but then, the P-D’s blunt and rigorous coverage of everything sporting has evaporated since the deaths of Strauss and Burwell, may they rest in peace. Ollie has been about as smart as a sack of doorknobs and nobody with a magaphone wants to mention it. Well that’s their prerogative — and mine is to be nasty (but not profane).June 21, 2022 at 7:33 am #188686
Many believe that the best coaches and managers are not former star players, but instead those who had to work hard to squeeze out every inch of results.
So because Marmol couldn’t hit as a minor leaguer, that makes him a poorer MLB managerial candidate than Shildt, who wasn’t good enough as a player to even earn a professional contract?
That is some confounding logic, but you’re entitled to it…June 21, 2022 at 7:34 am #188687
Exactly, Bob. I wonder how they explained to to Stubby. Or maybe they didn’t feel like they had to.June 21, 2022 at 7:39 am #188688
Stubby doesn’t fit the profile of the hot managerial candidates. It seems like the hires are either young bucks (often former catchers) or recycled oldies like Dusty, TLR and Buck Showalter.
Stubby was a hotter candidate coming off back to back Triple-A titles, but that is old news now. His allegiance to the organization is admirable, but if he received more managerial interview offers with other teams, I bet he’d pursue them – as he should. But he remains with StL.
P.S. We had similar discussions about Oquendo for years. He had interviews, but never got his chance – with the Cardinals or elsewhere.June 21, 2022 at 7:41 am #188689
Brian – It’s one thing to squeeze out every inch of results. It’s another to squeeze every inch and have no results. If OM had failed as a minor leaguer but been successful as a manager at the higher levels like Stubby, I wouldn’t be a bit down on his selection to manage an iconic major league team like the Cardinals. But as another poster said, his resume was very thin. Thinner than the prior two managers as well as Stubby.June 21, 2022 at 7:45 am #188690
I agree that Marmol’s resume is thinner. Of course it is, because he is just 35 years of age. Clapp is 14 years older, Matheny is 16 years older and Shildt is 18 years older.
What I don’t understand is how playing experience is a comparative plus for Matheny but a minus for Marmol and not a minus for Shildt, who didn’t play at all. It really doesn’t matter anyway, as the playing skill of the individual is not an indicator of his ability to lead and teach others. You don’t need to explain further. We can just disagree.
The second guessing on the manager choice is going to continue for some, but nothing is going to change for the foreseeable future no matter what.June 21, 2022 at 8:27 am #18869414NyquisTParticipant
Marmol was hired because he is FO controllable. The very good managers would be less likely to take a job as a puppet.June 21, 2022 at 8:31 am #188696
No outside candidates were even interviewed.June 21, 2022 at 8:44 am #188699
That’s a good topic, 14. How much input does the manager have on the roster? Does he get the players he wants, because of productivity and overall team chemistry? Or do the analytics guys look at pitchers in upcoming games and make those decisions?
Second point. Does the front office dictate at times who’s in the lineup? There’s no way Albert should be facing RH pitchers. In 2021 his line against RHP was .180/.233/.266/.500. This season so far it’s .127/.271/.225/.496. It’s obvious he’s only in there for career celebration purposes. Is that Mo’s decision 100%?June 21, 2022 at 9:49 am #188705
Then I guess the fact that Marmol was much younger and had a much thinner resume didn’t play into the decision. Or maybe it did because they wanted a puppet.June 21, 2022 at 10:00 am #188707Cardinal in FranceParticipantFree
Every great MLB manager was, at one time or another, a manager with no MLB managing experience.
Every experienced MLB manager available to work for the Cardinals has already been let go by somebody else.June 21, 2022 at 10:18 am #188709
“The grass is always greener…”June 21, 2022 at 11:36 am #188712
Yes, the grass is indeed greener when all the qualifications for the job are taken into consideration.June 21, 2022 at 12:43 pm #188713LeeParticipantPaid - Annual
bccran. Totally agree with your outlook on the mgr spot. OM should not have been given this job as he obviously was not ready.. he like players do, should be in the minors learning how to manage. This is simply too much for him to handle. The Mets did it right bringing in Skip; he would have this team playing at a much higher level and would have added several wins with better managing. OM, other than he is controlled like a puppet by the puppet masters, he is not a very good mgr..now. he needs time to get better and learn.June 21, 2022 at 12:47 pm #188714LeeParticipantPaid - Annual
Its really a kick in the rear for the fans and for the guys who are getting older. We all want to get that championship, but will not be done with this guy. STL has the player pieces in place, they just need someone who knows how to use them. You spend all this money on top notch players at 1st and 3rd, then bring on a second rate, inexperienced manager…doesn’t make much sense, does it.???June 21, 2022 at 2:15 pm #188726gscottarParticipantPaid - Annual
I thought Clapp would get the job also but technically Marmol did rank higher in the Cardinal organization than Stubby did at the time of the hiring. Bench coach is basically the right hand guy of the manager.
The bottom line to me is that is doesn’t make much difference. We would most likely be sitting in the same place in the standings if Clapp were manager because he would be dealing with the same unfortunate decisions from the front office that Marmol is dealing with. The way the Cardinals run things I think the manager gets too much blame and credit. The front office may not make in game decisions but I am confident they influence everything they can.June 21, 2022 at 2:32 pm #188728Cardinals27ParticipantPaid - Annual
I kind of liked Marmols decisions at first. But he seems to be going Matheny on us. I think we should put Liberatore back in the rotation in Pallantes spot, move Pallante back to the pen, and use Thompson as second lefty out of the pen. And if the Cards bite the bullet, and release Mcfarland, Wittgren, or Verhagen, which I doubt they will do, I would add Thomas.June 21, 2022 at 2:37 pm #188729gscottarParticipantPaid - Annual
C27, I totally agree with the moves you suggested. I just question who actually has the authority to make those decisions.June 21, 2022 at 2:54 pm #188732bicyclemikeModeratorPaid - Annual
Hard to say if another manager would have this club in a much better spot. Ollie is 3 games below our pythag projection, although there is a lot of randomness in that due to small sample data.
He seems willing to play younger guys, which I like. He looks like he will let talented guys play.
He does not seem real good in his use of the pitchers. But then I am not sure any Cardinal manager in recent memory has been very good, at least based on my opinion.
Obviously he is on the same page as the FO, and that went a long way to getting him hired. We will see how it all plays out. TLR had some early success as a young manager with the White Sox, and back in the day there were “Boy managers” that won pennants – Bucky Harris, Joe Cronin. Dick Williams, a lousy player, won a pennant in his first year. Walt Alston had a long tenure.June 21, 2022 at 3:12 pm #188739Bob ReedParticipantFree
Whoa. A Joe Cronin managerial reference! Well done, BikeMike. As an Illini, though, I wish you’d mentioned player/manager Lou Boudreau.June 21, 2022 at 7:07 pm #188759bicyclemikeModeratorPaid - Annual
Ah yes, Lou Boudreau! Great call, BR. The Ted Williams shift; which happened some 80 years before the shift became widely used in today’s game.
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