Managerial Thought

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  • #188571
    gscottar
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    I think it is too early to judge Marmol too thoroughly since he is only been in the hot seat for 2 1/2 months but from what I have observed so far he seems to be as good as our previous two managers. He has us tied for first with a rag tag bullpen that would have some last place teams embarrassed, while having to placate a couple of veterans on their farewell tour who shouldn’t even be on a big league roster.

    #188579
    bccran
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    “Seems to be as good as our previous two managers”.

    #188586
    gscottar
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    Do you think Marmol is worse than Shildt and Matheny? If so, how?

    #188591
    Ratsbuddy
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    gscottar said….

    while having to placate a couple of veterans on their farewell tour who shouldn’t even be on a big league roster.

    Totally agree gscottar. I am still expecting Pujols to announce his retirement around the All Star Break, citing his poor performance as hurting the team. I just hope he takes Molina with him.

    r/Esteemed Rat

    #188594
    Cards667
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    For the 1000th time – THE MANAGER DOES NOT SET THE ROSTER.

    So, is this a criticize the front office thread or a criticize the manager thread?

    Hire Joe Maddon! Hire Joe Girardi! Hire anyone fired by another team! Sheesh!

    I have no desire for Maddon or Girardi now. Would have been on board with either in 2012 when Tony retired. Which brings me to the roster. You can’t tell me Tony didn’t have serious input on his roster. The new guys? Probably not much at all. Which in my opinion is why there are a lot more younger, “analytical” managers because they are just pawns of the front office playing a video game of names with numbers. I agree stats can tell a whole lot, but there’s something to chemistry, baseball knowledge, leadership that give a team an extra edge that can’t be measured in stats, and Tony always had his boys and his players. And I’ll always be way more critical of the front office, the manager is only playing with the pieces he’s given (see Torre in STL vs Torre in NY), and this team needs pen help the front office didn’t address except with Japanese cast-off and their likes.

    #188597
    bccran
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    No. I’m just saying that you always try to improve going forward. And Ollie didn’t have the credentials as far as proven, successful major league managerial experience vs. the last two managers. But the Cardinals clearly knew what they wanted as far as a relationship between field management and the POBO and GM.

    #188599
    forsch31
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    Bc, I guess I’m confused by your statement. Marmol has exactly the same Major league managerial experience as the previous 2 managers did on the date all 3 were hired for the job.

    #188600
    mudville
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    The Angels have a notoriously bad front office and look where the Angels are again despite having the ‘great’ Joe Maddon as their manager, and look at where the White Sox are despite a very talented roster.
    And look where the Cardinals are.

    #188603
    kscardfan
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    If marmol sticks to not using Gallegos or Helsley without a lead he better hope his revamped bullpen alignment works. He can’t keep throwing in the towel like he did yesterday. A week late trying something different. I see this Team a bit above average. The Central has turned into the weakest division in the NL. Maybe all of baseball. If playing to win this division and then hope to get hot in the playoffs is the game plan, and I fear it is, gonna be a long while getting back to the WS. 70’s Cardinals are back.

    #188604
    bccran
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    Here’s my point, Forsch. MM was hired with no major league managing experience. He was fired. MS was hired with no major league managing experience. He was fired. Now OM has been hired with no major league managing experience. Is that improving things moving forward? Or would hiring a guy with proven, successful major league managing experience been a move forward?

    #188606
    bicyclemike
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    Going back to cranny’s original comment about Waino being managed by a guy younger than him, who did not succeed as a player – I would think they both talked about in the Spring. I have to think Ollie went to the veterans on the club and laid it out there – saying “Hey guys, you have been here longer than me and I respect that. So I will be counting on your support and leadership as we go through the year together.”

    That said, pennant races are full of pressure and it won’t always be smooth sailing. I don’t make anything more out of what was said than that – a disagreement. You can understand if Waino was upset, but like it or not OM is the boss, regardless of age difference or on-field history.

    #188607
    gscottar
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    I think the front office has made it very clear since the exits of Walt Jocketty and Tony LaRussa that this organization is going to be ran from the top down, not the other way around. We aren’t going to hire people like Buck Showalter or Joe Maddon unless there is a drastic change in philosophy. I would imagine that changing managers is the last thing on Mo’s mind right now. Hopefully he is thinking about how he is going to shore up our leaky bullpen.

    #188615
    bccran
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    Here’s the difference in my humble way of thinking.

    1.) MM was proven major leaguer who was named to a NL All Star team and awarded multiple gold gloves. Known for his toughness. Set a MLB record for a catcher for straight games and straight innings without an error. He had worked as a special rover with minor leaguers up and down the system.

    2.) MS was a long time Cardinal employee who had come up through the system in various capacities. His first managerial job was at Johnson City, but he then moved up to manage 3 years at AA Springfield and 2 years at AAA Memphis.

    3.) OM was a failure as a player. His slash line as a minor leaguer was .203/.301/.282/.583. He only made it to high A. He then had managerial stints at short season Johnson City and short season State College. Seasons less than than 3 months long. He had all of one year of full (5 month) season managing at Palm Beach (in 2015).

    Have we gone forward or backward?

    #188617
    Lee
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    Bccran
    This makes total sense!
    ———————
    Maybe Hicks should be in the bullpen, along with Woodford. That would give you Helsley, Gallegos, Cabrera, and Hicks to close games out. Woodford in middle relief.

    #188618
    Lee
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    Bccran
    This makes total sense!
    ———————
    Maybe Hicks should be in the bullpen, along with Woodford. That would give you Helsley, Gallegos, Cabrera, and Hicks to close games out. Woodford in middle relief.

    #188619
    Ratsbuddy
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    Hicks???

    He still CANNOT throw the ball over the plate. As far as I am concerned he needs to go back to Memphis and learn to throw strikes before he gets called back to St. Louis. I mean, DUH!!!!!

    r/Esteemed Rat

    #188621
    mudville
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    For the 1,000,000 time….. The manager makes the cuts at spring training, and that determines the roster. When a player gets injured or is grossly underperforming, the manager asks the front office for input. Then, the manager and front office personnel talk it over and decide what to do. The front office, of course, will do their best, but with deference to trade constraints and financial constraints.

    Obviously, I don’t know if any of this is absolutely true. But it’s probably not too far off. The idea that it’s only the front office that makes the roster decisions sounds a bit like an attack on our front office.

    #188622
    mudville
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    The Cardinals need to win at least 3 of the next 4 games so the (highly) Esteemed Rat can stop being so grumpy, and maybe even get back to being his cheerful self.

    #188633
    forsch31
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    The Cardinals could have went the route of hiring a proven, successful major league manager. The only question with that philosophy is, who would they have hired that hasn’t been fired as a manager before?

    The thought that Marmol is a “failed minor leaguer” should have no bearing on him as a manager. He obviously had enough talent to get drafted in the 6th round of the 2007 draft. Walt Jocketty was GM and Jeff Luhnow was scouting director. Brandon Hyde, Joe Maddon, Derek Shelton, Buck Showalter, Brian Snitker, and Rob Thomson have all managed this year in the major leagues with no major league playing experience.

    As far as going forward or backward, I think it was a push. Really no different than the previous 2 hires. However, my recollection of things I had read over the past several years is that Marmol was highly thought of and regarded as a future major league manager.

    I would have liked to have a more experienced manager and think he makes some mistakes. However, I also think he will learn and be a very good manager. Sometimes, the best managers/coaches are the ones who aren’t the most successful, athletic players. They have had to learn how to be smart about playing and work hard at it.

    #188643
    Bob Reed
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    The way I saw it at the time of the hire, Forschy, and the way I still do, is that Stubby Clapp was the far more logical choice if the club was staying in house.

    Ollie Marmol neither managed nor played above A-Ball, while Clapp recently won back-to-back AAA championships, following a playing career that reached the majors. Moreover, Clapp is in his late 40’s and Marmol is in his mid-30’s, so if life experience counts for anything (and it should count for something in my opinion) the advantage there goes to Clapp as well.

    If Marmol was considered the more cerebral/analytical of the two, then I would say the Redbird front office sorely over-estimated him. Because Marmol has repeatedly gone against what was sensible/logical/mathematical in his roster choices, lineups, and in-game tactics.

    I give Marmol full marks for seeing something in Andre Pallante that I did not believe was there. But beyond that, I’ve seen an ocean of gaffes by the first-year skipper. And I think that with the bottom three of the division being so terrible, and the rookie trio of Donovan, Gorman, and Yepez combining to be so productive (collective OPS around 135!), an average MLB manager would have this team 40-28 or 41-27 right now.

    #188645
    forsch31
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    Bob, I agree that Clapp would have been better. As a matter of fact, I thought he would get the job.

    #188647
    1982 willie
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    I think marmol will always be an average manager. Some things where I feel he messed up, he should already know. They may win but his managing style means he will never get any, any credit from me. He matches the front office though. They both match those people that go up and spend a hundred dollars or more on that big lotto. Every once in a while those guys get lucky and win big. That our whole organizations way of doing things. Just hope for a stroke of great luck. Personally I’d rather they find a manager with some personality, give him some control and say, and get the front office out of most of it. Let them focus on what they should be focusing on.

    #188652
    Bob Reed
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    But I don’t think he’s average, Willie. Therein lies the problem. I think he stinks. For a whole lot of reasons.

    And the other thing, re Clapp v Marmol. It feels anti-meritocracy in a pretty big way. The guy who’s been around longer and achieved a championship as a manager at a considerably higher level (more than once) gets simply skipped over. And the thing of it is, the Birds have organizationally always sorta bragged about promoting from within, about guys earning and getting a chance — with players and coaches and executives alike. And this time, well, they did NOT do that. Marmol and his relatively flimsy resume went straight to the top.

    #188661
    bccran
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    Forsch –

    All good except the last 2 sentences of your long post.

    #188663
    1982 willie
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    Well Bob I always try to be somewhat nice. For me to say he stinks, we would have to be down behind the pirates. I agree about clapp but maybe they think clapp might be more like shildt and might have the same issues. Far as pallante. I liked what I saw in pallante in spring training. I didn’t think they would because of his age put him on the big team but I felt he deserved it based on what he did.

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