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Maybe OAK likes Gorman and Donovan? (3B & 2B). Both 6 yrs club control and near minimum pay.
That could definitely be the ask.
If they are keeping Winn as the long term shortstop option, and trading one of Donovan or Edman, Bogearts might make more sense than Swanson….think he could move to another position (2base) more easily plus a much better bat than Swanson over their careers.
That being said I don’t believe they will do anything at shortstop and are just looking at adding a catcher and maybe bringing back Quintana.
Although it’s serious heat, this has nothing to do with the HSL. Does anyone on here get the Cardinal games on TV with the local StL. announcers which include Dan Mclaughlin? I just got a text message from my son telling me that he’s been charged with Persistent Driving While Intoxicated which is a class E felony in the state of Mo. Apparently he was stopped and arrested about 2 miles from where we live over the weekend.
The Astros have emerged as a potential suitor for Sean Murphy, per source. Houston currently has Martin Maldonado as its catcher and has been connected to free agent Willson Contreras. Murphy, a former Gold Glove winner, is under club control through 2025.
— Mark Feinsand (@Feinsand) December 6, 2022
Now the Astros’ are supposedly interested again. Murphy would be a valuable addition to all but maybe five teams. Hopefully this is more along the lines of the Atlanta rumor last night that was quickly squashed.
I was curious how a “bidding war” might play out amongst the Guardians, Rays, and Cardinals–who can all be considered among the most disciplined teams in sticking to their player valuations. It’s not surprising that the answer is to throw more teams into the mix.
“Philly was a serious contender for a WS title in ’22…”
Yes and no. Of course, they did get to the World Serious.
But they also made it in into the playoffs as the last wildcard team over the mediocre Brewers, with exactly one game to spare, in a season where an extra playoff team was added.“Maybe OAK likes Gorman and Donovan? (3B & 2B). Both 6 yrs club control and near minimum pay.”
They can ask, but there’s no way I give them that. Not both, no chance. One, not both. They get one of those, plus Burley or Yepez, plus Liberatore, plus McGreevy, and even another guy or two from the lower minors. All that would be an overpay, of course, but a palatable overpay. But if both Donovan AND Gorman are included, there is a non-trivial chance that the Cards are immediately made worse for 2023, not better.
And if this all leads to Dansby Swanson in St. Louis, then I give up on this front office. Because giving Dansby Swanson a market-value contract would combine the immense stupidity of the Fowler and Ozuna acquisitions, and likely doom the team to the 85-90 win range at best for the foreseeable future. (The Phils just proved an 87-win team can muddle through the playoffs, but I want a 97-win team in St. Louis. And that will never happen if Ollie Marmol and a highly-paid long-term Dansby Swanson are together on this team.)
Dansby is Fowler, because for his entire career up until 2022, he’s barely been a 2-WAR player. And if you commit financially and emotionally to a 2-WAR player, an average player, then just like with Fowler you’re stuck with him during all the times when he is BELOW average — and that’s roughly half the time! You have to play him when he’s below average, and you even have to play him when he’s terrible. As we’ve seen with Dexter Fowler and Matt Carpenter and to a smaller extent Paul DeJong in recent years.
And Dansby is Ozuna, because any team that acquires him now is acquiring an illusion, a mediocrity coming off an accidentally excellent season that will never be repeated. We have seen this movie before. And it was awful. And as we all know, sequels are always worse than the originals. (Unless Coppola or Cameron are making them.)
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If the A’s are demanding Winn or Walker or Graceffo or Hence, then forget ’em. If they want both Gorman & Donovan, then forget ’em. BUT if worse comes to worse, and Gorman & Donovan are both traded away, then bite the bullet and get Bogaerts regardless of cost, because he is an actual star player who makes your team markedly better. Swanson will make your team worse during multiple of his remaining seasons, we should have zero doubt whatsoever. Because baseball was played before 2022, and Swanson was mediocre.
Whatever they do, the Cardinals absolutely must not give big money and big years to Dansby Swanson. It would be a disaster — just like Fowler & Ozuna.
Mets sign Verlander. Good little bit of money but verlander is a pretty safe bet. Good job by their management.
Just curious, who would you NOT trade (majors and Minors combined)? Limit 3. It seems everyone wants the Cardinals to upgrade, but every player is off limits or the ask is too high?
“Just curious, who would you NOT trade (Majors and Minors combined)? Limit 3. It seems everyone wants the Cardinals to upgrade, but every player is off limits or the ask is too high. Heck, even go 5 players, lol.”
I’ll assume we’re talking about a trade for Sean Murphy or Alejandro Kirk, and not Sandy Alcantara. For one of the two catchers, the off-limits guys would be Walker, Winn, Edman, Graceffo, and Hence. In that order. Next would be Nootbaar, then Carlson, O’Neill, Donovan, and Leonardo Bernal*. And the thing of it is, it should be possible to trade very fairly for Murphy or Kirk without losing any of those 10 players.
Look at the pool of talent still available: Nolan Gorman, Alec Burleson, Juan Yepez, Matthew Liberatore, Ryan Helsley, Ivan Herrera, Michael McGreevy, Josh Baez, Andre Pallante, Won-bin Cho, Alec Willis, Zack Thompson, and Jimmy Dale Crooks III.
*Speaking of Leo Bernal, Baseball Prospectus just ranked him the #6 Redbird prospect, so I guess the secret is out. That didn’t last long.
I hope the FO doesn’t commit to a Gorman & Donovan package for Murphy and then backfill with cash for Bogaerts.
The lineup does improve, it’s not that the plan is bad, but it uses our prospect capital and cash for the offseason without addressing pitching.
This would be trying too hard, when they could just sign another 0.8 bwar catcher just like Knizner, and be mlb avg at catcher (1.6).
I’d rather have Q and a Bassitt type thru trade, than Murphy and Bogaerts.
I don’t think we could exclude Bob’s list and still outbid all other interested teams. The problem with a basket of second tier assets is everyone has them and is willing to trade them.
That could be the challenge, bling. But it may not be impossible. For example, they did acquire Arenado without giving up any top guys. A lot depends on how the other organizations view the Cardinals prospects, which we have no vision of. Maybe one or more of the “second tier” assets would excite the prospective trade partners.
The risk is that another team would be willing to give up top tier prospects, in which case the Cardinals may lose out.
OAK can pull out of the trade Murphy sweepstakes at any time. COL had a situation that was so bad they paid 50 mil to make it go away. Someone will pony up top tier prospects or OAK just pencils him in their lineup and revisits the scenario over and over.
It makes no sense for the Cardinals to be exploring an expensive SS. Of all of the holes on this team middle infield is not one of them. Catcher, OF, and starter are more important in my opinion.
I understand the argument that we might need to trade a middle IF to Oakland for Murphy, but as Bob stated, if Oakland insists that we give them two middle infielders I would tell them to forget it. We could then move onto the next catcher.
And Dansby is Ozuna, because any team that acquires him now is acquiring an illusion, a mediocrity coming off an accidentally excellent season that will never be repeated. We have seen this movie before. And it was awful. And as we all know, sequels are always worse than the originals.
C’mon…. Dansby isn’t even hurt. 🙂
#STLCards remain among favorites for Willson Contreras. Looking toward a longtime star of main rival for possible Yadier replacement.
— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) December 6, 2022
The trade I still like the best is Tyler O’Neill for Danny Jansen. The Blue Jays get a power outfielder and the Cardinals get a top tier catcher. What makes the trade fair is that both players are injury prone. For example, we could only expect 250 AB’s from Jansen and if you take O’Neill’s average number of AB’s over his 5 years in the majors, it comes out to 251. The good news is that we get to see Herrera get some AB’s. I admit that I like Herrera’s enthusiasm and I expect a lot more from him in the future. I want to see him play, although if he has a bad spring, that could be a big set back. Knizner still hasn’t shown too much, but with regular AB’s he might be better than expected.
The trade I still like the best is Tyler O’Neill for Danny Jansen. The Blue Jays get a power outfielder and the Cardinals get a top tier catcher.
The problem is Toronto is looking for a LH bat.
Been thinking of Gormans natural power from the left side and how StL would like to add a middle order LH bat behind GoldeNado.
No-one on our roster uses the opposite field like Donovan. The BB/K, the OBP…. the D versatility. Cold feet here.
Naaah, Nootbaar is good. Maybe real good. Averaging his Baseball-Reference and Fangraphs numbers, he’s been worth about 4 WAR per 600 plate appearances so far in his brief career. And he’s hit lefties as well as righties, so no need to consider platooning. And Lars brings energy to the team, which has some value in my opinion. Not a ton, but something.
If Toronto won’t trade Kirk, then forget ’em. Someone said Danny Jansen might give the Cards 250 AB’s per year, right? Heck, he hasn’t even reached that lowly threshold since 2019!
If the Jays will trade Kirk, and they insist on a lefty bat, then they could have either Donovan for OBP, Gorman for slugging, or Burleson for some of each. Obviously, other pieces would be added also.
No thanks on Contreras, It’ll be too much money for too many seasons, no doubt about it. That’s what happens in free agency with the marquee players & pitchers, over and over. The play is Murphy or Kirk. If you can’t get one of them at anything close to a reasonable cost, then get a halfway decent cheapo veteran to support Herrera & Knizner.
And who knows, maybe Ivan Herrera will surprise us! Believe it or not, the Steamer projection model says he’s already a 3-WAR guy per 600 PAs, so perhaps we are all underestimating him.
Cubs To Sign Cody Bellinger https://t.co/40ZtGZnITE pic.twitter.com/cdaOv6mr4G
— MLB Trade Rumors (@mlbtraderumors) December 6, 2022
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