- This topic has 130 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 5 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
No team optimizes to only one variable. The challenge is finding the right balance to win the most games.
I am honestly wondering what part of “Edman is the starting center fielder and Carlson is the fourth outfielder” announcement people do not understand?
It as if we ignore reality and keep repeating our contrary opinion, it will somehow change… This has been going on for weeks now. I guess there is nothing else for some to talk about…
What the Cardinals announce and what long time fans think is the best alignment can be different. It’s part of being a fan. Doesn’t make it right. It’s just an opinion. Fans have them. And that’s okay.
Was it not so very long ago that this board was eagerly awaiting the arrival of Carlson and dreaming of the problems he was going to solve? Or am I misremembering? Somehow so much of this stuff has a familiar ring to it.
It sure seems the Cardinals have accepted the role of Carlson as a reserve. As noted many times previously, he has almost 1,500 career MLB plate appearances over four years. He isn’t an unproven, untested rookie anymore nor is he a threat to emerge. He has value, though, which is why he is still on the team while O’Neill is gone. Use him where he can help the most. As a reserve in all three OF positions and hitter against LHP.
CIF –
In 2021, at only 21 years of age, Carlson was a starting outfielder for the Cards, and appeared in 149 games. He slashed .266/.343/.438/.780. Had 31 doubles and 18 home runs. In 2020, he was rated the 17th best prospect in all the minor leagues. Did all of that talent go away, or has he just been carrying around injuries the last 2 years? I guess time will tell.Carlson has had 1 GOOD season in the minors and 1 fairly good season in the majors. He has some raw ability but hasn’t harnessed it. The question is whether or not he ever will.
GC, of course not, because if Carlson started, Edman could be the shortstop and Winn could be traded. That none of the three are actually happening is just happily ignored.
I am not down on Edman at all. He is a valuable player, though clearly overvalued by some. Right now, he is their best answer in center field. In an ideal world, his offense will improve enough that he can hit at the top of the lineup instead of the bottom, but only in his first year (2019) was his OBP good enough to justify that placement.
No-one on our roster can match Edman at SS, 2B or CF defensively. Edman is our best CF’r and it’s not even close.
Carlson has 460 career attempts in CF with a +6 OAA.
Noot has 203 attempts for +1 OAA.
Edman has 127 attempts for +5 OAA.If we normalize all 3 players to Carlsons’ 460 attempts, Noot becomes +2 and Edman becomes +18.
If you think Edmans’ small sample size is misleading compared to Carlson, then you are saying Edman can’t repeat exactly what he did last season in CF, and the same for Carlsons’ time in CF.
I’m not surprised Mo has Edman in CF.
Supporting jj’s point, I offer a preview. In tomorrow’s Winn free top prospect report, I share some Cardinals insider views of Edman’s defense in center. Spoiler: It is much better than you might think.
Edman is a proven Gold Glove second baseman. Winn is a possible Gold Glove SS. Potential dynamic middle infield defensive duo for the next few years. Rare opportunity.
bccran, you keep pushing Edman at second but never explain where Gorman and Donovan are going to play. My conclusion is that you want Carlson playing every day, which would mean one of Gorman and Donovan are always going to sit. That would not win more games, IMO.
Maybe we could make Gorman the center fielder.😉
JJ, the eye test tells me that Edman is one of the best in center. That is why I have been backing the idea to play him there. Having Edman in center as the regular starter with Carlson getting the other starts is the best combination defensively and offensively. That is the way the Cardinals try to get the most wins. If Carlson’s bat comes around, then you rethink what the team needs to do with the lineup.
It would be great if Edman could play everywhere at once or they could play the best defenders only. But they need the bats of Donovan and Gorman, which is why they are going to play.
P.S. You don’t weaken the MI defense because Gorman and Donovan are the incumbents at 2B. That isn’t a change. And you improve your OF defense with Edman out there and don’t lose at SS because of Winn. Like I said, tradeoffs…
Bottom line, there is no reason to push Carlson back into a starting role. They have a better alignment with him as the fourth OF. As said, if Carlson earns more time later and/or Winn can’t cut it offensively, then deal with it at that time.
Not by very much. Taking one of Gorman or Donovan out of the lineup in favor of Carlson weakens the offense much more than the defense is weakened with Gorman at second.
Mo traded Bader and handed Carlson the CF job. Carlsons’ ineffectiveness overall, is why Edman is in CF.
Carlson will have to earn the role back, from the bench, until an injury gifts him some starts.
Not to interject revisionist history but the Cardinals could have seen some of this coming, especially with Gorman. He was their number one draft pick so I assume they expected him to make the majors relatively quickly. He was drafted as a 3B so I am assuming that was his expected position in the majors but Mo was determined to trade for Arenado, which he did about a year after drafting Gorman.
I am not saying they shouldn’t have traded for Arenado, since he is a potential HOF player, but they should have realized there were going to be consequences for Gorman. Maybe the plan was to let the DH solve their problems but that is poor planning. They basically did the same thing with Jordan Walker. They wanted the bat so badly they figured they would figure out the defense later. There are consequences for doing that.
The bottom line is the Cardinals have several players playing out of position because they are trying to fit a lot of square pegs into round holes in order to optimize the offense. The offense/defense balance is a delicate tightrope walk indeed.
I get where you are coming from, gscottar. But as you said, Gorman was drafted pre-Arenado. After the trade, they either needed to shift Gorman defensively or trade him. Trading him would have led to a whole ‘nother round of second guessing. It took time to confirm he is a below average defender at 2B but a 30-home run hitter is going to play.
It is too early to say about Walker but I said from when he was drafted they should have started the position move sooner. Only they know why they waited. But at 21 years of age, Walker will get better. He is putting in the work and should become an average MLB OF.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.