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June 5, 2024 at 11:56 am #255188
Baker is old news. Prieto is still fresh and new. In May, Baker topped Prieto in XBH, HR, RBI, BB, OBP, SLG and OPS. Prieto topped Baker in doubles, runs, K rate and BA. Who would you pick?
The org tends to recognize top prospects rather than the top players.
Prieto and Saladin Named Cardinals Top Minor Leaguers for May
June 5, 2024 at 1:40 pm #255200July 1, 2024 at 5:55 pm #258535DSL RH Keiverson Ramirez had the top overall pitching performance in the #STLCards system in June. The 18-year-old’s results are compared to four other finalists with ERAs under 2.00, Top 10 prospects and last month's winner. https://t.co/mRXymrahhO
— Brian Walton (@B_Walton) July 1, 2024
July 3, 2024 at 1:51 pm #258696Palm Beach OF Chase Davis turned around a first year of frustration with a breakout June, topping eight other finalists as The Cardinal Nation’s top hitter in the #STLCards system. Top 10 prospects and May winners’ June results are also reviewed. https://t.co/fryBZ2OExm pic.twitter.com/HweJlzhrWt
— Brian Walton (@B_Walton) July 3, 2024
July 5, 2024 at 8:37 pm #259189Rarely does an organizational winner miss our list of finalists, but the Quinn Matthews hype train is operating at full speed. He was sixth in ERA in the system among June qualifiers.
Davis and Mathews Named Cardinals Organization Top June Minor Leaguers
July 5, 2024 at 10:09 pm #259245I don’t have a problem with a pitcher with a higher ERA winning the award as it isn’t the best ERA award. Mathews pitched 12 more innings so his results mean more while he also had a really good ERA still as well. I typically judge pitching prospects based off K%, BB%, and K-BB%. Once you get to the higher levels, HR % start to mean more, although this isn’t who will be a better prospect and more who had a good month. I still like the %s as an input as they show who is really dominating.
Mathews had a 31.8% K rate with a 8.0% BB + HBP % = K-BB% of 23.8%
Ramirez had a 25.0% K rate with a 4.2% BB + HBP % = K-BB% of 20.8%July 6, 2024 at 8:06 am #259255Albert, thank you for your thoughts.
To your main point, there are a number of months the lowest ERA pitcher was not the winner, but a 1.00 ERA vs. a 2.10 ERA is pretty significant. Sixth-best ERA is digging deeper than I normally go. Is a 3% better K-BB ratio enough to overcome the much larger ERA gap between the two?
In the past, with a pitch to contact orientation, the organization did not consider strikeout rate to be the most important, though that may be changing.
While the award isn’t for the best K-BB ratio, either, it raises an interesting question. I wonder if we could develop a weighting of the key factors that could be used for the selection?
P.S. I checked BABIPs. Mathews’ was .255 at Peoria and just .071 at Springfield. Ramirez’ was .313. Should that matter?
July 6, 2024 at 8:34 am #259256I may be wrong, but it seems to me like the Cardinals generally try to avoid giving the award to DSL players unless it’s just a slam dunk decision. I’m ok with that. You have 20 year olds sometimes pitching or hitting against 16 year olds in an environment where defense is bad and pitch control can be wild. I don’t fault TCN approach with going strictly by best stats either. Just a different method. I agreed with Brian and also thought the Cardinals would pick Graceffo. But I think there’s another trend going on there where they seem a little less likely to pick guys who have been there and done that in past seasons (e.g. Baker last month).
July 6, 2024 at 8:46 am #259257I went back and looked at the June strikeout and walk numbers. I use the rate per nine innings (as cited at MiLB.com) rather than the percentages Albert cited. The results are very different.
Mathews 11.1 K/9, 2.7 BB/9, 4.3 K/BB
Ramirez 9.0 K/9, 1.0 BB/9, 9.0 K/BB
Graceffo 8.4 K/9, 1.7 BB/9, 5.0 K/BBJuly 6, 2024 at 8:55 am #259258Jnevel said:
“in an environment where defense is bad and pitch control can be wild…”
Granted, but bad defense should show itself in unearned runs. Last month, Ramirez had one unearned run in 18 innings. Mathews had three in 30. In the stat of all runs scored per nine (earned+unearned), Mathews was at 2.70 and Ramirez at 1.50.
In his defense, Mathews moved up a level near the end of the month and his first Double-A start was not up to his prior standards (3 BB and 2 UER in 5 1/3 IP). Yet, the numbers are what they are.
To the other point, walking just 1.0 batters per nine in a league (DSL) in which the season average is 6.1 per nine seems a huge differentiator for Ramirez.
July 6, 2024 at 9:42 am #259263I don’t think BABIP is a great measure in the minors. The problems with it can go both ways. Bad defenses mean BABIP is higher sometimes, but the gap between good pitchers and the average batter can be higher as well and the sheer dominance of weak contact can lead to low BABIPs. You can see this in Ramirez higher BABIP (bad defense) and Mathews lower BABIP (dominance).
K/9 and BB/9 are good measures of a pitcher, but they can be skewed and may misrepresent how good a pitcher is. A pitcher who allows a lot of hits can end up with a higher K/9 than a pitcher who is striking out a higher rate of batters just from sheer opportunities. I am not stating this is the case with Ramirez, but just trying to say why I prefer % stats. Let’s look at 2 hypothetical players.
Pitcher 1 – 90.0 IP, 150 hits allowed, 120 strikeouts, 30 walks = 450 batters faced
Pitcher 2 – 90.0 IP, 90 hits allowed, 105 strikeouts, 30 walks = 390 batters facedPitcher 1 – 12 K/9, 3 BB/9, 4 K/BB, 23.3 K%, 6.7 BB%
Pitcher 2 – 10.5 K/9, 3 BB/9, 3.5 K/BB, 26.9 K%, 7.7 BB%Pitcher 1 had 60 more opportunities to strike out batters despite the same amount of innings pitched meaning the K/9 may be inflated. But pitcher 1 also had 60 more opportunities to walk batters, meaning the BB/9 may be inflated too. Pitcher 1 is better at avoiding walks than Pitcher 2, but is worse at striking batters out. The K/9 and BB/9 would lead you to believe that Pitcher 1 is better at striking batters out and both had the same control.
I don’t want to take away from Ramirez and the results he had and I also have no problem with him winning it from TCN. I was more or less stating I can see why the Cards would pick Mathews. There is also the publicity of it which does make sense from an org that desires future revenue from top prospects by generating buzz around them.
July 6, 2024 at 9:45 am #259264Fangraphs does have the K% and BB% on their pages. However, it isn’t filterable by month. To get per month rates, I have to convert IP to BF and add on hits, walks, HBP. This isn’t perfect as it doesn’t account for GIDP or CS though.
https://www.fangraphs.com/players/quinn-mathews/sa3023407/stats?position=P#advanced
July 6, 2024 at 1:10 pm #259297Thanks for the explanations, Albert. Good discussion. I didn’t consider you taking away from anyone, nor was I. I am always anxious to try to do better in the selections.
However, for the bottom line, especially given the numbers you quote are not readily available on a monthly basis, I am probably going to continue looking at BB/9, K/9 and K/BB as provided at MiLB.com.
August 1, 2024 at 5:00 pm #262605With an assist from Robert Redford and Paul Newman, I explain my selection of DSL catcher Rainiel Rodriguez as The Cardinal Nation's #STLCards system-wide Player of the Month for July. (free) https://t.co/wTlj0AGpUl pic.twitter.com/ULbBQPYnNz
— Brian Walton (@B_Walton) August 1, 2024
August 3, 2024 at 7:57 am #262815For the second consecutive month, DSL RH Keiverson Ramirez posted the top overall pitching performance in the #STLCards system. The 18-year-old’s July results are compared to seven other finalists with ERAs under 2.50 plus all Top 10 prospects. https://t.co/7pUQYeFbdQ pic.twitter.com/2QqZ73Rt55
— Brian Walton (@B_Walton) August 3, 2024
August 3, 2024 at 10:46 am #262825Stay with me on this, it comes together.
My idea of how to go about developing starting pitchers is founded upon the notion that you have to first establish that success as a starter is a possible outcome. Time will tell if that outcome is achieved, but you have to first find out if it is even possible. IMO the Cardinals have made a grave mistake in not doing that, with Hence being an especially egregious example. He was in his 4th year in the system, 3rd pitching due to 2020, before he ever even went 5 innings, and had only done that on three occasions before he was advanced to AA. Once he was finally pushed toward 100 pitches and 6 IP he broke down physically. He may come back and pitch this year, but it will be well into next year, his 6th in the system, before we next have a chance to find out if he can physically handle it. In other words, we still do not know if success is a possible outcome. Goodness.
The issue with measuring DSL and rookie level guys on one hand, and upper level guys on the other, all with the same yardstick, has been touched upon above and discussed before. But this excersize that Brian goes through every month is what I use to identify lower level pitching prospects, that I otherwise would be unaware of, who are establishing that success as a starter is a possible outcome. This Keiverson Ramirez seems to be checking that box. I don’t know about pitch count, but he is going 5 IP every time out, as an 18 year old his second year in the system. We will have to see what happens next year in the US, but success is a possible outcome.
Quinn Mathews is another who has checked that box. Last year, his first in the system, he worked up to 80-90 pitches and was going 5 IP every time. This year he pushed up to 90-100 and has worked his efficiency up to where he gets 6 IP out of that. So far, so good.
I mention those two guys to deflect the lame excuse that some guys come into the system younger, as teenagers, and others come after several years in a college program. This is an example of each, and both are doing it right. I hope the Cardinals development system is coming to its senses and will quit with bubble wrapping and slow walking some of these guys. Separate out the tea cups early. And bear in mind, if you choose to load your prospect list with guys as to whom success may not even be a possibility, what you are doing is setting up tin soldiers in a sandbox and pretending like you’ve got a real army.
August 3, 2024 at 2:50 pm #262859The beauty of Player and Pitcher of the Month is their simplicity. It doesn’t matter the age of the player, his level or if he is a prospect. All that matters is how he performed last month.
August 3, 2024 at 2:54 pm #262861Bling – while Tink is definitely someone the Cardinals handled differently, I don’t think he represents the norm. For example, I remember listening to a single A game where they were complaining that their pitchers are never eligible for any league titles because there are usually only 5-6 pitchers every year that are qualified based on innings and 4 of those are always Cardinals. In other words, the Cardinals are known for having their pitchers throw longer than anyone else – at least at the low levels. You can see this represented when you go back and look at league leaders in ERA on MiLB.com. Typically only a few qualify and most are Cardinals. Hence and Hjerpe have been notable exceptions of late but those are the only two.
August 5, 2024 at 7:50 am #263094Pitcher 1 – 90.0 IP, 150 hits allowed, 120 strikeouts, 30 walks = 450 batters faced
Pitcher 2 – 90.0 IP, 90 hits allowed, 105 strikeouts, 30 walks = 390 batters facedPitcher 1 – 12 K/9, 3 BB/9, 4 K/BB, 23.3 K%, 6.7 BB%
Pitcher 2 – 10.5 K/9, 3 BB/9, 3.5 K/BB, 26.9 K%, 7.7 BB%August 5, 2024 at 7:54 am #263095The problem above seems simple enough – look at WHIP in the context of ERA, K/9, BB/9 & K/BB.
It’s rare that there are major distortions between WHIP and ERA, but it can happen.
August 5, 2024 at 7:59 am #263096jnevel said:
while Tink is definitely someone the Cardinals handled differently, I don’t think he represents the norm.
I agree, but if there is data to support the other view, I’d like to see it.
The only other pitcher I can think of who was handled very carefully has been Hjerpe, after he had the fragments removed from his elbow. Since both he and Hence had to sit out due to injury after they were “bubble wrapped”, how does one rationalize that they should have been pushed even harder? Wouldn’t that have risked more severe injuries quicker?
Instead, why not try to protect the large financial investment they made in these players and try to maximize their potential? It is not like they are blocking others. So what does it hurt to be conservative other than to frustrate those who are impatient (which sometimes includes me)?
bling, please explain what is behind your thinking. Thanks.
August 5, 2024 at 9:29 am #263104WHIP has a variable. The Walks and IP are locked in as “knowns”, but WHIP can’t tell the difference between a grand slam and a single (Hits). ERA can, so I expect a natural “distortion”.
August 6, 2024 at 11:37 am #263238Lotsa crickets coming from you on questions asked here and on other threads, bling…
August 6, 2024 at 11:38 am #263240As I expected, the Cardinals organization selects Thomas Saggese and Jose Davila as their July Player and Pitcher of the Month. I guess they should just say they are excluding all rookie players from consideration since that is what they do in practice.
August 7, 2024 at 2:53 am #263334“I guess they should just say they are excluding all rookie players from consideration since that is what they do in practice.”
Couldn’t have said it better.
Rainiel Rodriguez had one of the most extraordinary months in memory (.404/.492/.962) and despite getting 30% fewer trips to the plate than Saggese, the 17-year-old backstop actually accrued more total bases in July. His slashline dwarfs Saggese’s in every category.And then to top it off, there’s the massive plate discipline gap in Rainiel’s favor. Saggese, 7 walks and 22 whiffs. Rodriguez, 11 walks and 5 strikeouts. (And 8 home runs.)
It’s not just July, either. Since mid-June, Rainiel Rodriguez has been mashing like a right-handed Ted Williams, at .363/.461/.813 with 19 walks, 10 strikeouts, and 10 taters across 115 plate appearances.
On Tuesday he struck out. This is noteworthy, since he hadn’t fanned in roughly three weeks. All in all, Rodriguez has struck out just twice in his last 60 trips to the dish, against 14 walks, 7 homers, 5 doubles, and a triple. The Cardinal brass should be throwing the young man a parade, rather than ignoring this amazing stretch of hitting.
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