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PIT and MIL have lost 5 and 4 in a row respectively. The Cardinals have given away at least 3 games this past week. I can only speak for myself, but I’d give a dollar to be 7 games back.
Steve60…Haha! I talked to my son the other day and he said, “I haven’t been watching much.” I asked him, “Why not?” He said, “If you ask that question again I’m going to start calling you, The Marmot”…
Steve60, you are right about the number of pitchers that did that tonight. Though none went far past it. Some like Lynn have done that a lot so not a surprise but a lot of pitchers aren’t built that way. Others like fried shouldn’t have been allowed to pitch that long, part of the reason Atlanta lost I believe. I just know watching the Cardinals, they haven’t allowed too many of their guys to go a 100 a lot of times other than guys like waino. Now maybe they should with Monty. Wouldn’t hurt to see how he handles that many pitches. Regardless your bullpen has to be able to get the job done, I know there are few complete games by starters.
“…managers have used the 100 pitch threshold for a long time now. It’s not new.”
It’s a rough guideline, not an absolute by any means. We know for a fact there is no “100 pitch limit” for Jordan Montgomery, for instance. Specifically, he threw 107 pitches on April 24th, and came back on the 29th to pitch very effectively against the Dodgers in his next start, allowing 1 run in 6.2 IP.
And last year, in the follow-up to his season-high 108-pitch outing of 8/12, he was also outstanding on regular rest, permitting just 1 run in 5.2 innings. Therefore, based on all available evidence of 2022 and 2023, there is no reason to think 105-110 pitches would physically compromise Montgomery in any way. And obviously no reason to think he would be any less effective in his next start.
When it comes to pitch counts, I understand erring on caution’s side. If Monty had thrown 10-12 more pitches, mayyybe you pull him after 6. Or with a 3-4 run lead, you can pull him after 6. Or if ANYONE other than Hicks* of all people was coming in to protect the one-run lead, you can pull him.
But the way Marmol managed the 7th inning was exactly the way I’d have wanted him to manage it — top and bottom half of the inning — if I were a Tigers fan.
An itemized list of this season’s Marmolian idiocies would be too painful to compile and too tedious to read, so my humanitarianism precludes it. But tonight, Hicks Loss II, would easily make the grade.
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*Jordan Hicks last posted a sub-4.80 ERA during the 2019 season. Someone please remind the Cardinal manager of this “analytic” fact.
Well, well, well. I see from my morning catchup read that Ollie still hasn’t “figured it out.” Somebody tell him please.
Oli pulled Monty because he is smart not because he is dumb. Smart enough not to end up fired like Schildt. The wonks say that twice through the opposing lineup is how it should be done. Third time through is bad. Mo expects the manager to make use of the analytics to guide in game decisions. Oli was following the script because that is what he was hired to do.
Now, if the manager has been hired to apply his knowledge and experience, and make in game decisions based upon that, then Oli would have considered the analytics, which says that a pitcher’s chances of getting batters out diminishes the third time through. But he also would have factored in the risk of going with a new pitcher who may come in and be off that day. His stuff may not work, his control may be off. That is a risk bringing in a new pitcher. He would consider who is available and their attributes. Against that risk he weighs staying with a pitcher who stuff is known to be on, and whose control is known to be on, but who will now be facing batters for the third time, with a diminished chance of getting them out. It might be that he decides to stay with the known quantity for a third time through the lineup. But Oli was not hired to do that. He is probably not the guy to be hired if you want your manager to do that. Oli was hired to paint by numbers. We are seeing the philosophy gone wild, where decisions are made based upon nothing but numbers without factoring in the intangibles which cannot be effectively quantified, and therefore cannot be input into the automated decision making system. So the diminished chance of success the third time through is considered, but the risk associated with bringing in a new pitcher is not.
Baseball has really changed. Now we are worried that a starter will have to go in the IL if he throws 110 pitches when he is healthy and in the prime of his career (21 more pitches than Monty actually threw). I don’t get it.
Exactly what I said earlier. You aren’t married to the guy beyond thos year amd are facing 13 games under .500. What the hell is there to lose to throw hik another inning. It’s an incredible take on that situation. Again the game has really changed when your best pitcher can’t go more than y innings or 85 pitches. Wow.
Oh one more nugget, the Cardinals are 1-8 since the demotion of Walker amd 1-10 since his last start. Yeah he was the problem.
Monty was not pulled due to pitch count worries. He was pulled because he would be facing the third time through the lineup. Whether that was the smart move in this case is worthy of discussion.
Lange threw two pitches in the strike zone that last inning…the double to Goldy and called strike three to Contreras. The rest was shoddy umpiring and the Cards swinging at junk.
At this point you have to admit that the season is likely over…it stinks but sometimes a season just gets out of hand. I think you have to shop all the rentals and maybe Carlson and Edman and see what you get in return.
If what you get in return is pitching, then you have no center fielder and DeJong is your everyday shortstop.
If what you get in return is pitching, then you have no center fielder and DeJong is your everyday shortstop.
And why would that matter? There are SS and CF in the system, this is about building for the future.
There are also pitchers in the system.
Not enough. The main key is that CF and SS have guys who could play the position defensively. The bats are secondary. We simply don’t have enough pitching system wide to fill the St Louis staff going forward.
Another game where we just do not get the big hit, and the bullpen cannot get the job done.
Why you bring in Hicks with a one run lead is anyone’s guess. He has never shown the command required of a late inning reliever. The guy is built to be a starter, but for several years now the Cardinals have tried to mold him into a late game bullpen guy. Whoever in the organization cannot see this despite four years of evidence needs to be fired.
Yepez failed his first test, but I hope he gets a legitimate shot and stays in the lineup more than just being platooned. Contreras had his chance with the bases loaded, and tapped back to the pitcher. Just uncanny how this club loses day in and day out in the same manner.
Yeah, a 1 run lead in the 7th inning right in the midst of a 6 game losing streak. The baseball’s once again placed in his hands and he promptly walks the first hitter he faces. The reality is that a 3 run lead wouldn’t have held up. He was charged with 3 ER’s. I don’t fancy myself as the sharpest tool in the shed, but after a while I learned that the sun sets in the west and a clock turns clockwise. I don’t know why, but it’s just what happens.
I am thinking Mike Maddux had a lot more positive influence on our pitchers than we previously thought. We would need to ask the pitchers who were here last year about that to be sure. But he would go to the mound a lot more than Dusty Street does, and seemed to genuinely converse with the pitcher and get him to focus. The current pitching coach seems to just let guys go and hope they get the job done.
Was sitting behind chip caray and (for an inning or so) brad thompson for this one. The guys a row ahead of me had the kzone up and the umpiring was really god awful.
Those same guy’s actually threw the rest of their beers on the crew as they were leaving the field. First time ive ever seem that at busch. This team and fans are just in disarray.
Mound visits are limited, but the current limits began in 2019.
A good shoulder massage can do wonders. That’s another thing analytics doesn’t capture.
Well bling I do agree about Monty being taken out because of the lineup being turned over but I disagree that pitch count didn’t have anything to do with it. If he had gotten to that point with 70 pitches instead of 89 I believe he stays in. Though with marmol nothing is for sure. Personally I do think you are right about what his role is. He is basically following a script they laid down. I do believe managers should have the ability to go off script without worrying about job security. Leaving monty in there another inning would have been the prudent move if he was so inclined, whether it would have been right or not I believe far as opinion on this board would depend on results. If he goes out there and doesn’t give up any runs, nothing would be said. If he goes out there and gives up those three runs then you have plenty of people probably some of the same saying he should have been taken out after six innings. To me the focus of most people’s ire is this one decision or a combination of others as well like one game will make a difference. The real issue is we have pitching issues across the board. Those need to be addressed in some way or none of this matters.
Oli pulled Monty because he is smart not because he is dumb. Smart enough not to end up fired like Schildt. The wonks say that twice through the opposing lineup is how it should be done. Third time through is bad. Mo expects the manager to make use of the analytics to guide in game decisions. Oli was following the script because that is what he was hired to do.
Thank you bling for speaking the truth! Finally there is someone here who realizes what is going on. I can’t understand the shock and dismay over why Monty was pulled. You certainly don’t need braille to figure it out. I can almost guarantee you that there was a spreadsheet in the dugout that says Monty’s batting average against the third time through the lineup is such and such so he has to come out.
That is the manager’s dilemma. Follow the script created by the algorithm upstairs and risk losing the game or go with your gut and risk the wrath of philosophical differences.
Hicks obviously can’t get the first guy out almost ever. Not too good against the other hitters either.
Detroit’s game-winning rally in Friday’s 7th inning started when #STLCards RHP Jordan Hicks walked the leadoff hitter.
Hicks (0-3) this season vs the first batter of an inning: 7 hits, 2 HR, 3 BB and 4 Ks. In those spots, he has a 7.50 WHIP & has allowed a .636 batting average.
— John Denton (@JohnDenton555) May 6, 2023
Another aspect of the game last night that wasn’t mentioned much on here was the huge hit that Noot got in the 8th inning but it bounced over the wall for a ground rule double. That was just brutal as PDJ would have walked home easily with the tying run. The baseball gods just won’t give us a break.
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