Home › The Cardinal Nation Forums › Open Forum › 2023 Arbitration Decisions
- This topic has 195 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 6 months ago by
1toughdominican.
-
AuthorPosts
-
February 19, 2023 at 8:57 am #212882
A front office has a lot of things to deal with over the course of 162 games that are beyond their control. Things like injuries, poor player performance, rainouts, etc….. Why compound those headaches with a self inflicted mistake of agitating one of your best players over a minuscule amount of money? (Yes I know that $740k seems like a lot of money to us commoners but in terms of a MLB payroll it is minuscule). Now they have a big distraction to deal with that was completely avoidable. That is dumb.
I hope Burnes does leave. That just helps the Cardinals.
February 19, 2023 at 10:15 am #212892I hope Burnes does leave. That just helps the Cardinals.
It might help more if they extend him out until he’s 40 with a big hunk of their payroll.
February 19, 2023 at 11:08 am #212894Seems like what you really want is an adjustment to the salary arbitration process, gscottar, but I don’t know how one would define it.
February 19, 2023 at 11:25 am #212896I am really not concerned about the overall merits of the arbitration system nor am I really concerned about the Brewers or Burnes. I am, however, interested in how organizations make business decisions and this particular decision strikes me as curious. I find it strange to take such a confrontational approach with such a key player over such a small amount. It would seem to me that the Brewers have much bigger things to worry about than whether they pay Burnes an extra $740k. Their payroll is $114.7M. I hope it backfires for them.
February 19, 2023 at 12:02 pm #212898gscottar…Do you also find it strange that Burnes should take such a confrontational approach to such a small amount? I mean, he’ll be paid $10.1 MM this season as opposed to the $10.7 MM that he sought. Maybe he’s as common and petty as the Brewers are and as a result of that mutual trait they’ll have a wonderful relationship together.
February 19, 2023 at 12:30 pm #212899Do you also find it strange that Burnes should take such a confrontational approach to such a small amount?
This could be just a case of Burnes having an initial vent, then all parties move forward with a good season and don’t look back. If that happens, then all he did was release some frustration of the moment. Nothing really terrible with that.
If, however, he carries a grudge all season and keeps kicking dirt, then I’ll consider him extremely delicate. Nothing strange about that. There are a lot of delicate types nowadays.
February 19, 2023 at 12:50 pm #212901Yeah, I’d say everyone needs a ventilator, Euro. However, I’m simply lending the perspective of someone who isn’t a member of the nobility…I like to imagine that if someone laid $10.7 MM on a picnic table, I’d leave $700,000 as a gratuity and get the heck out of there…Haha! At any rate, I’m reasonably certain I wouldn’t argue.
February 19, 2023 at 12:57 pm #212902gscottar…Do you also find it strange that Burnes should take such a confrontational approach to such a small amount?
I would prefer that a player air his grievances privately to the club instead of publicly but I suppose he felt going public would paint the Brewers in a negative light, which thus far it has. We also don’t really know what was said in those hearings although some have reported that the Brewers blamed Burnes for them not making the playoffs. I don’t know how credible that claim is but if it did happen then shame on them.
My guess is that the Brewers didn’t want to budge off of their offer because they didn’t want to offend their fellow owners by offering “above slot”‘ money. If so, they are paying the price publicly by staying loyal to the other owners.
This isn’t the first time the Brewers have bungled things PR wise. Remember the Hader fiasco?
Fallout of Corbin Burnes’ arbitration hearing following troublesome pattern for Brewers https://t.co/s7OwiwoUua
— Brew Crew Ball (@BrewCrewBall) February 17, 2023
February 19, 2023 at 1:04 pm #212905Yeah, I’m with you on that, gscottar. Griping to the media is always a mistake simply because it’s members are highly trained and practiced in the area of stirring things up. I mentioned yesterday that “Silent” George Hendrick and Steve Carlton were both very smart men.
February 19, 2023 at 1:12 pm #212908However, I’m simply lending the perspective of someone who isn’t a member of the nobility…I like to imagine that if someone laid $10.7 MM on a picnic table, I’d leave $700,000 as a gratuity and get the heck out of there…Haha!
Hear, hear to that.
Plus it’s not like the Brewers were nefarious or cheap as you hear it often described. They went through a negotiated, agreed upon process that the players have benefitted from by millions for decades. Win some, lose some. Players now can whine about not getting over market value? Did Burnes expect the Brewers to present his case for him and say nothing but great things about him? Boohoo.
February 19, 2023 at 1:30 pm #212909It’ll be interesting to see how Burnes goes about earning his money in ’23. He’s a first rate SP’er, but one article I read pointed out that he struggled with a 5.31 ERA during a 7 turn stretch from late Aug. to late Sept. of ’22 while the Cardinals were displacing the Brewers in the NLE and the Phillies were grabbing the last remaining WC in the NL.
February 19, 2023 at 1:47 pm #212910gscottar, we are just going to have to disagree.
With no structure to define which situations teams are supposed to give in to the player’s salary request, there will be no rules at all. It will just lead to even more disagreements of opinion. That won’t fly unless you want owners to always give in to the players. It seems in that world, there will never be a hearing. So nobody’s feelings will be hurt.
Or if you are going to be selective, how do you decide who?
Is it based on how good the player is? How good is good enough to qualify?
Is it based on a dollar difference or percentage difference between the two offers? How much is enough to matter? How much is too much?
Is it based on the amount of time they have been negotiating?
It is based on the service time of the player?
Is it based on the market of the team or its payroll?
etc. etc. etc.The whole purpose of the hearing is for both sides to prepare an assessment of the player’s value compared to other players. If there is no threat of a hearing, what will keep either side from making their offer too high (player) or too low (owner)?
My opinion is that the system in place today (agreed to by players and owners through multiple CBAs) works pretty well. There are good checks and balances built in to be fair.
But when you want exceptions to the rules, then what you really need is to change the rules, because the current system is not working the way you want it to.
February 19, 2023 at 2:47 pm #212911I don’t know how accurate this score is, but I read today that teams are 13-6 in their favor in arbitration settlements this year. Looks like the players should get somebody up in the BP…
February 19, 2023 at 2:54 pm #212912Perhaps I am not making myself clear. I am saying that this situation could have been handled differently regardless of the arbitration system. Teams can pay whatever salary they want whenever they want (the Cardinals did this with DeJong). Assuming the lines of communication were open the Brewers probably would have know what Burnes was looking for. They could have announced they are signing him to a one or two year deal without going to arbitration.
As has been suggested, perhaps they figure Burnes is not in their long term plans due his future market value therefore they don’t care if he is miffed or not. (There are consequences to this approach)
Or as I mentioned above, perhaps the Brewers did not feel comfortable stretching the arbitration offer because it would cause a ripple effect with other teams.
Or maybe both issues are at play. I just don’t accept the suggestion that the team had absolutely no other choice but to do what they did because of the system.
February 19, 2023 at 3:12 pm #212913I don’t think he is mad about the $740,000. He is mad because in the hearing the team brought up the various reasons why they thought their number was right. He didn’t like hearing those reasons. But its an adversarial thing. His side emphasizes the things that support the higher figure, the team emphasizes the things that support the lower number. Those things were said, so he would be mad whoever had won.
February 19, 2023 at 3:21 pm #212914I’d say so, Bling. If you don’t want me to shed any light on the downside, don’t mention anything about your CYA.
February 19, 2023 at 3:30 pm #212915It’s been mentioned that maybe the Brewers didn’t want to offend any of their fellow owners. I don’t think that’s the case, but if it were, wouldn’t that be dangerously close to hinting at a form of collusion?
February 19, 2023 at 3:50 pm #212916I suppose it could but it would be hard to prove, especially since the Brewers offer was well within the arbitration guidelines. I am sure both parties were bull headed and could have handled things differently but the reason I am more focused on the team instead of the player is because I like studying management decisions and how teams are built. It is the job of the front office to build the roster.
The more I think about it I would say it is likely that the Brewers already assume that Burnes won’t be with them past 2024 so they don’t care what happens between now and then. I just think there are some pitfalls with that approach.
February 19, 2023 at 3:55 pm #212917Yeah, it’s hard to prove, but both Bud Selig and Jerry Reinsdorf will attest that it’s not impossible…Haha!
February 19, 2023 at 4:10 pm #212918Just looked and Corbin was the only arb case for the Brewers. Here is how that compares to other teams.
10 teams filed 0 cases
11 teams filed 1 case
5 teams filed 2 cases
1 team filed 3 cases
2 teams filed 4 cases
1 team filed 6 casesHard to see how the Brewers were trying to make a statement with that spread. Looks like a simple matter of the Brewers thought they had more accurately assessed Burnes’ value and they arbiters agreed.
February 19, 2023 at 4:15 pm #212919Here’s a different approach from Kyle Tucker, who had a $2.5MM delta between his and the Astros’ submission.
“The outcome wasn’t what we were hoping,” he said. “I don’t think it was the right one, but it is what it is at this point. I just wanted to go out there and fight for what my value was and what we kind of wanted to do. You’ve just got to respect it and move on and work on getting ready for the season.”
https://www.mlb.com/news/kyle-tucker-ready-to-move-on-after-loss-in-arbitration
February 19, 2023 at 4:24 pm #212920That may be Euro but the arbiter doesn’t have to deal with any collateral damage. He or she makes their ruling then moves on with their day. The team is the one drug through the court of public opinion.
February 19, 2023 at 4:50 pm #212921Organizations that melt to “public opinion” just because it’s public opinion are not doing it right. Public opinion is not always right. My part of public opinion is the Brewers did right in that they followed what both sides have agreed to for years and Burnes is being a sore loser (again not really if he was just doing a reactionary venting, but yes if he truly carries a grudge because he over-evaluated himself). I’ve read quite a few opinions that think Burnes is being wimpy. What is the real public opinion?
February 19, 2023 at 4:57 pm #212922I have seen quite a bit of criticism of the team about it but I am sure it isn’t unanimous.
Wow. Not a good look for the Brewers after going to arbitration with their ace.
Corbin Burnes isn’t happy. Rightfully so.
— Ben Verlander (@BenVerlander) February 16, 2023
February 19, 2023 at 4:59 pm #212923#STLCards closer Ryan Helsley and #Brewers ace Corbin Burnes both lost their arbitration hearings, leaving both players feeling taken aback.@JesseRogersESPN says this system “probably should be replaced.” More on Sports Open Line w/ @MattPauleyOnAir : https://t.co/Sp8mO8qECs pic.twitter.com/a1HrM1wke6
— KMOX Sports (@KMOXSports) February 18, 2023
-
AuthorPosts
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
