2021 Cardinals MLB Game 59 thread – Saturday, June 5 vs. Reds

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  • #163389
    1982 willie
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    Oh let’s move the goalpost when facts don’t fit someones criteria. Bader has not underperformed compared to others on this team. Different players, different expectations. Edman has also made a lot of costly mistakes in the field some not given an error because we have terrible official scoring nowadays. I like it edman but don’t gloss over stuff cause it doesn’t fit an agenda.

    #163390
    1982 willie
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    Compared to the salary guys are making which is really what should determine their expectations, goldy and arenado are underperforming bader. Bader was doing great til schildt was an idiot and moved him up in the batting order. Now bader was never going to hit 280 but 250 would and could be a reasonable expectation. Plus defensively he was by far the best on the team.

    #163391
    bccran
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    The last full season Bader played, he hit .205. And you think he’s going to hit .250? Lol. He’s at .219 this season and heading downward.

    #163395
    LACardFan
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    An OPS of .700+ is just fine for Edman. He’s not expected to have a high slugging percentage. He’s hitting .272 to Bader’s .219. Poor example for you to bring up.

    No, Edman’s not expected to have a high slugging percentage, but he is expected to have a high OBP. It was .317 last year, and .325 this year. Bader’s was .336 last year. And while it is only .301 this year, it only takes a few hits to surpass Edman again this year.

    As for poor examples to bring up, referring to batting average rather than OBP is rather silly.

    But he hasn’t underperformed in 2019, 2020, and 2021 like Bader.

    Paul Goldshmidt WAR:
    2019 – 682 plate appearances – 2.7 WAR
    2020 – 231 plate appearances – 1.9 WAR
    2021 – 242 plate appearances – 0.8 WAR

    Harrison Bader WAR
    2019 – 406 plate appearances – 2.3 WAR
    2020 – 125 plate appearances – 1.0 WAR
    2021 – 83 plate appearances – 0.6 WAR

    Given that WAR is a counting stat, it sure looks like Bader outperforms Goldschmidt.

    #163397
    forsch31
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    bc, you asserted that Bader is underperforming the Cardinals expectations. Maybe you missed a couple of earlier posts (or decided to move the goalpost):

    Bader has a .213 batting average but he has shown better plate discipline and is producing decent power. He is currently at a 101 OPS+, or league average, and has 9 RBIs in only 21 games played.

    Bader needed to get better plate discipline and that is what he is showing this year. I am sure the Cardinals brass know that it will pay off in the long run for Bader to do what he has done so far this year. His BABIP is quite a bit lower than it has been in any other season in the majors. That points to him being due for a rebound. He was in the midst of a 1 for 20 slump when he got hurt. He was at .283/.361/.528/.889 prior to this cold spell. That is not underperforming.

    I was going to point out how Goldschmidt, Arenado, Molina Carlson and Edman all have been just as bad as Bader for a period of time this year but decided against it. I know there would be some excuse as to why they could be bad for a period of time but it’s OK but it’s not OK for Bader.

    BTW, if Edman is a young player then Bader should get the same consideration. Edman is not even 1 year younger than Bader. Don’t give me how many plate appearances Bader has had in the majors. Since graduating high school, Bader has had 3,464 plate appearances and Edman has had 3,396. If Edman gets a pass based on youth, so does Bader. After all, Bader was Edman’s age last year and you were bashing on him then, too.

    #163398
    forsch31
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    Just because I know there are a lot of posters who are getting tired of this back and forth, I am not going to respond anytime soon to what I consider to be a comical hatred of Bader.

    #163404
    bccran
    Participant

    Forsch –

    Why do you keep using Edman as an example
    of underperformance. He’s hitting .273.
    I’m sure most posters are pretty happy with that. When he was called up, many expected him to be no better than a very versatile utility man. The other guy I mentioned has hit in the aggregate under .220 for 3 straight years. If you don’t want to talk about him again, fine. But best you stay away from calling Edman an underperformer based upon expectations.

    #163415
    forsch31
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    Bc, I made 1 reference to Edman underperforming. His OBP for a leadoff hitter is below average. Based on that he is underperforming.

    #163422
    bccran
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    Underperforming is based upon expectations, not the position in the lineup, Forsch. That wouldn’t be fair to the player.

    #163429
    jj-cf-stl
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    Leadoff is a tough, tough batting order spot to be average at.

    here is batting cleanup and leadoff to date:
    .261 / .336 / .430 / .766
    .250 / .327 / .440 / .767
    (basically tied)

    those batting order spots rank 2nd and 3rd overall, behind only batting 3rd, which is tops with a .771 ops.

    #163432
    bccran
    Participant

    Forsch – What’s the average OBP for a leadoff man today? Just curious. And how
    does Edman stack up to that?

    #163433
    Steve60
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    I am probably going to look stupid after this post, but oh well! I’m in my 60’s, been a Cardinal fan forever and don’t really know what these new stats like iOS and war are but I have watched a ton of baseball and know what batting average is and this is what I think about Edman and Bader! There is no comparison! Edman is way better! You don’t need stats, all you have to do is watch! Edman is a spark plug at the top of the lineup! He is one of the big reasons we went to the NLCS in 2019. Yes he had a bad 2020 but has rebounded and I love watching him play! I like Bader too but he has proven, at least to me, that he is a great fielder and below average hitter! He is never going to hit 250 over a long period of time! I’m a cardinal fan, I hope he hits 300 but I just don’t see it! On a good hitting team you could live with his 230 hitting because he does save runs in the field, but we don’t have enough hitting right now for that to work! Comparing these 2 is silly! One has proved he is an everyday player, one is still trying to do that. Anyone who think Bader is better than Edman is seeing baseball in a very different way than I view it! I’m sure you can find some stat that says Bader is better but my eyes tell me it is not true!

    #163434
    blingboy
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    The way I look at it is we are a better team with Bader in CF than without him in CF. The whole OF defense is better, and the lineup works well when he is in the 8th slot, where a batter with some experience is a better choice than an inexperienced guy.

    #163435
    Steve60
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    I totally agree blingboy. Right now he is the best option for CF! However, he must raise his average some to be a viable everyday players for the next 4 or 5 years!

    #163437
    forsch31
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    Steve, this isn’t about who is better. This is about the assertion that Bader is among the group who is underperforming the CARDINALS’ expectations. That brought on the further discussion about how looking at only ONE stat, at this point in the season, to say someone is underperforming is wrong. If he is still hitting .219 at the end of the season, he will have underperformed.

    bc, the NL average OPS for the first batter in the lineup is currently .345. Edman is sitting at .322. I’m sure the Cardinals EXPECT their leadoff hitter to be at least league average. Before you make the argument that 23 points is not that big of a difference, if Bader was hitting 23 points higher, he is hitting .242. As a matter of fact, Bader WAS hitting .250 just 4 days before being hurt. He was hitting .283 just 1 week prior to going on the IL.

    #163438
    forsch31
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    BTW, I am not opposed to having Edman play CF in the future IF he proves he can play an above average CF defense AND Bader does not continue to progress on his hitting. (and no, bc, hitting in this case is not referring to only batting average)

    #163439
    bccran
    Participant

    In Bader’s last full season, he had a OBP of .314. This season, his OBP is .301.

    #163440
    bccran
    Participant

    Before Bader was hurt, he was 1 out of 20.

    #163444
    forsch31
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    Goldschmidt went 2 for 20 at one point this year.
    Arenado just broke out of a 1 for 22.
    Edman went through a 4 for 32.
    O’Neill has a 1 for 20 early in the season.
    DeJong went 0 for 23.
    Molina is 1 for his last 15.
    Carlson started 2 for 15 and had another 1 for 16 stretch AND a 2 for 23 stretch
    Sosa started the season 2 for 14 and had a recent 2 for 18.
    Knizner had a 2 for 28.
    Dean is 2 for his last 13.

    That is every hitter who has at least 25 plate appearances this year and is hitting at least .200.

    Bader has an OBP of .301….for a bottom third of the order hitter. That’s pretty good. It would be pretty good for Edman if he was batting in the bottom third. The team believes he is a leadoff hitter.

    #163446
    forsch31
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    Where a player bats in the lineup makes a difference on the expectations of that player. A leadoff hitter is expected to get on base. Usually, the second batter is expected to be a bat control type of hitter. The third batter is the best all around hitter. The fourth hitter is the “power” threat. The fifth hitter is the next “power” hitter, etc. When Ozzie came over to the Cardinals, no one expected him to bat .250. They wanted at least .225 and outstanding defense.

    #163449
    bccran
    Participant

    If Bader becomes an annual finalist for the Gold Glove, hitting .219 becomes a little more palatable. But right now he’s just another Peter Bourjos. Who never nailed down a starting CF job after leaving the Cardinals. Late inning defensive replacement. Which is where HB will probably end up.

    By the way, those hitters you mentioned that are going through or went through slumps, didn’t hit .205 their last full season like HB did. That’s the worry. He was headed back down toward the Mendoza line again.

    #163450
    bccran
    Participant

    By the way, Forsch. Suggest you look at those NL leadoff OBPs again. Look at the mean, not the average to get a more accurate picture.

    #163453
    forsch31
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    bc, I already gave you the mean. It is the same as the average by definition.

    If you want the median, you can look for it and provide a link. It is not worth the effort to try to figure out who is defined a leadoff hitter for each team and for how many at bats they were a leadoff hitter. The average provides the best way to determine a baseline since it takes every at bat by the player hitting in the first position in the lineup.

    #163457
    forsch31
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    BTW, bc, how do you determine that all those other players had a slump but Bader didn’t? After all, O’Neill hit .173 last year and DeJong hit .233 in his last full season. Why did you ignore that Bader hit better in 2018 and that his average was higher last year? You also never addressed that Bader has shown that something is different in his hitting since he is striking out much less than he ever has in the majors. You also didn’t point out that his BABIP is over 50 points less than his worst year which hints that he is due to start having better results with his hitting.

    #163458
    bccran
    Participant

    I’m all for Bader having better results. The Cards need it.

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