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I leave you guys alone and what happens?
You can’t use your only 3 pen arms until they blow out and let the bargain roster filler guys sit out there and watch until somebody makes them buy tickets. If you have no bench to counter pitching change moves or take advantage of late inning opportunities, then you don’t.
While Shildt does not appear to be a master tactician, I do not really blame him for the various woes the team has and is facing. He has to manage the roster he is handed. I mean, we used 4 pinch hitters last night: Knziner (.203), Carp (.121), Thomas (.167), Moroff (.000). And in the bottom of both the 7th and 9th, when we desperately needed base runners, nobody on the bench offered any better chance of getting on to lead off those innings than our starting left fielder Williams, with his .178 BA, and he failed to get on both times. But there was nothing Shildt could have done to give his team a better chance. We can talk about cycling in this guy or that from Memphis, but face it, there is nothing there.
We can say put Gant out there when Mikolos returns, but I am against removing a starter who can be counted on to keep us in games just because the pen stinks. Go get a couple arms for the pen. Guys who can do something besides light up a radar gun throwing it who knows where. Put Carlos out there. It would shake things up to add a guy who throws 85 who knows where.
In a tie game after 6 full, Helsley throwing the 7th inning is common place this season. Helsley failed, giving up 2 runs, and we get one run back after 7 innings full, down 4-3.
At this point no-one should expect to see Gallegos, Cabrera and Reyes in the 8th; you get when behind relievers, when behind. Whitley, Webb, Elledge and Ponce. Want better relievers? get the lead, give them a game to save.
Shildt’s pen management was spot on, his players failed. It’s not just the outfield where players are being auditioned.
Another good game by Sosa. Sosa to 6th and Bader back to 8th, as others suggested before the game, could be coming.
I don’t agree with not putting your best relief pitchers out there. It was a close game. Your good pitchers aren’t for just when you are ahead, they are for when game is close. This team has showed a penchant for coming back from small deficits. We had two days off this week, those guys had plenty of rest. Webb, Whitley etc are average pitchers at best less so in reality so if you are ok with the team basically having a 40 percent or less chance of winning that game, then yea put them out there in that situation. Sure you can’t keep putting the same guys out there day after day and you have to just eat a possible bad game by your bullpen. But coming off two days rest you have to use your best in a tight game. May be blowouts the rest of series. There are times to be prudent, yesterday wasn’t one.
Woof, lol
I think we all know that this is a flawed team but the Central division was garbage last year and looks like garbage this year too so being the tallest midget will still win you the division.
Shildt was not the problem. The problem is our bullpen is a shambles. It was supposed to be a strength of the team. Gallegos and Reyes are the only two I have any faith in, Cabrera maybe on some days. The rest just throw gasoline on the fire. This is why I want Gant back in the pen. In the modern game having a stout pen is as important as having a stout rotation, in my opinion. Especially since starters rarely go more than 5 or 6 innings.
“it was a close game”
“sure you can’t keep putting the same guys out there day after day…”that was textbook bullpen management, coming off a off day, by any mlb manager. You want the “when ahead relievers”? get them a lead.
If Helsley goes 3 up and 3 down, and we score that run in the bottom of the seventh, we have a one run lead to start the eighth. Who do you think Shildt throws then? I’ll bet it’s not Whitley, Webb, Elledge and Ponce.
Shildt had it set up right. Helsley deservedly gets the loss.
I have a feeling you will get your wish jj and Gant will go to the pen with Mikolas starting Saturday. I would much prefer to see Carlos dropped from the rotation but what do I know.
Any world of the corresponding roster move yet?
They could send down two mop up guys and bring back Nogowski for yet another chance. We had nobody to pinch hit for Williams leading off the 7th or 9th when we needed base runners. Not that you should ever have to pinch hit for your starting left fielder, but that is where we are. Or make some other kind of move and try Rondon.
I have a feeling you will get your wish jj and Gant will go to the pen with Mikolas starting Saturday.
It is me who wants Gant back in the pen, as of April 1.
It was textbook bad management by a game manager. Sure helsley didn’t do his job but that doesn’t mean basically throwing the white flag up by putting Whitley and Webb in there. Though you can argue Whitley is serviceable, arenado didn’t help him out by messing up a sure out at third. If you can only pitch with a lead, you aren’t any kind of a pitcher. Now it would be nice if some other guys could step up but I don’t see it with what we have now. Bottom line you try to get the win when you can. Our main guys could have been used all weekend as long as pitch counts didn’t go high. That’s even if we need them today and/or tomorrow. Sure I know we have a long stretch of games but still have to try to win games as they are there to be won. Our team has won plenty of games late. Putting the same bad guys out there expecting a different result is the crazy part though unfortunately has to be done sometimes but didn’t have to be last night.
So when do you want our best 3 to throw willie?
When its a save opp right?
And when tied right?
How about your “penchant for coming back”?
Down 1?
Down 2?
Down 3?
You are disagreeing with every mlb manager out there. Are you not watching how Girardi and Francona manage a pen?What Whitley, Webb, Elledge and Ponce did last night does not matter. We did not score after the 7th. Helsley determined the game. We can not have our best three throwing 60 to 70% of the pen innings all year in case we MIGHT score more runs.
You were correct when you said “can’t keep throwing the same guys out there day after day”. Everything else is just wishing we had more relievers like our best 3.
“This is why I want Gant back in the pen”.
GS, a bullpen outing this weekend by Gant wouldn’t surprise me. He last started on the 18th and isn’t scheduled to start again until the 26th. It’s not the permanent pen assignment you’re speaking of, but maybe Mikolas will be successful over this 17 game stretch and allow Gant back to the pen after.
JJ I don’t care what every manager does. If you are coming off basically two days rest for everyone on a 4 day set, and you have a close game, you try to win the game. By close I mean a two or less deficit. The fact we didn’t score after they scored 8 runs means nothing. Closer games means tighter nerves. Especially a one run deficit. We score a lot of our runs off runs, could have easily tied it up. Ive seen lots of managers use a good reliever down a run to keep it close to see if game could be won. They didn’t bring in a scrub hoping to keep it close. All we needed was two innings unless it went to extras. Those guys could easily have pitched an inning a piece and still came back tonight and tomorrow unless one of them had a really bad inning in which case we are at same point as now. I don’t know where this when notion of you only pitch your real good relievers when ahead came from but its nonsense. I’ve seen it done by lots of great managers. Yea it depends on situation and other things. But when you have a fully rested bullpen, no reason to mess around with scrubs unless the game is or feels out of hand. That game going into the eighth neither felt or was out of hand.
Well, you’re entitled to want more innings from Reyes, Gallegos and Cabrera, but I think your focusing too much on one game and not the big picture, which is one of the managers primary duties.
As of yesterday, Cabrera is on pace to throw 81 IP this season at his current pace. That’s not including the additional appearances you are describing.
Speaking of appearances, Reyes already leads the NL in appearances this season. He’s on pace to throw 84 IP, and you know well of Reyes recent history of unavailability. But you suggest we throw him more? Forget the limited workload of 2020 for these three, I doubt Reyes has thrown 84 IP in the last three seasons combined.
And Gallegos? He’s currently on pace to throw 94 IP this season, without your increased workload. You were right when you said you can’t throw these guys every day, and I’d suggest we’re maxing these three as is.
STL hasn’t had a full time reliever throw 80 IP since 2014, and our three best are all current on pace to better 80 IP. If we don’t back off SOME between now and the postseason, I question all threes availability in the postseason.
We’re going to lose at least 70 games Willie, and many will be due to our lesser productive relievers, but we shouldn’t burn out what’s been productive because we MIGHT score some more runs.
If we just lose 70 games, it will be a plus for us. I can’t help management didn’t get rid of webb and some others and pick up some quality relievers. Bottom line you manage what you got and coming off rest and in a close game, you should use your best guys especially against a division rival. These games mean more. Of course mikolas goes down tonight, so think we have the biggest prima donnas in the league. In the end, I’m not changing your mind, I’m not changing mine. Just agree to disagree.
LOL! I knew four replies ago you weren’t changing your mind. I just wanted to present some reasons why Shildt managed the pen the way he did.
Tonight we have a different scenario. The pen isn’t fresh after using five relievers last night, and you’ve already got your wish, Cabrera in the 7th, when tied. Of course Shildt has recent usage to consider now. Hopefully we have a lead to save, soon.
Isn’t any different. He could use the same guys he used last night, no way they would be tired. If so then they should just give up baseball. He just decided to go for win tonight. He could have done that last night and maybe we could be going for a second win. Like I say I understand sometimes you have to just live on hope that some guys can get it done, I just didn’t feel last night was that night coming off rest for our main guys. Whitley and Webb didn’t need any rest, they have hardly pitched.
I read it, didn’t change any what I said. Guys on pace for high inning count, not the first time relief pitchers have thrown that much. More than likely it will change. We are on pace for a historic walk record to. If that doesn’t change, nothing else will matter. Like I said, you believe what you will, that’s fine. But I’m old scho, I believe you play to win the game especially the division games. Heck throw a game against the white sox, I don’t really care about that.
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