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gscottar:
As I mentioned in the game thread I find it interesting that the Contreras announcement was made on the same day as Waino’s return. It is possible the pitching staff led this revolt against the catcher.
That has been my thinking since hearing about the change. I think that you are absolutely correct. It won’t be advertised for the obvious reason.
It is possible the pitching staff led this revolt against the catcher.
My reaction to that idea is either Wow! or Hmmmm?. I’m not sure which. Well, it might explain why the whole thing doesn’t seem to have been thought through, with messaging figured out, before it was rolled out. That would be something if it is the case. I would assume Dusty would have been well aware of the sentiment and also assume he had sense enough to keep his head down and find something to hide behind.
Well, Jack Flaherty excusing his terrible start by blaming “pitches that don’t make sense” in the post game interviews, likely got the ball rolling. No reporter is going to miss that, and will run with it.
Like I said previously, Jack has sucked before, even with Yadi behind the plate.
As for Waino, has he even thrown to Contreras? If he did it was in his short spring training. Why would his returning spark this? Jack mouthed off before Waino came back.
“Two-strike hits, whatever that comes down to,” Flaherty lamented. “Whatever the hell we’re doing as a staff is pretty bad. Way too many two-strike hits today. It was like 2-1 hit, bad count, falling behind. Even if we fell behind, got back in the count, made pitches to get to two strikes then had too many balls hit hard. That’s frustrating, throughout our whole staff — throwing pitches that don’t make sense.”
“We have to do a better job of putting guys away,” Flaherty said. “Whether that’s throwing the pitches that are actually going to put guys away or executing better. … I just saw they had [nine] hits off me with two strikes, so you’ve just got to do a better job of executing.”
https://www.mlb.com/news/jack-flaherty-struggles-cardinals-losing-streak-six-games
Maybe this is nitpicking or trying to read between the lines, but note that he said “you’ve”, not “I’ve”.
If you believe what Contreras said Yadi told him in a phone call, Yadi was watching the games and said the pitchers weren’t executing.
It is self-serving, I get it. But I believe at least part of it was pitchers not executing.
My guess is this catcher to blame narrative will start taking on water from the start, and will be resting on the bottom very quickly.
Someone should ask Jack who was throwing the pitches: him or Wilson. This reminds me back at the beginning of the season when Matz shook off Contreras then gave up a homer.
They had to know going from Molina to Contreras wasn’t going to be seamless. Molina is one of a kind and likely will never be replicated.
Rosenthal said in his article today that the Braves traded the “other Contreras” for the same reason, yet we don’t hear the Brewers complaining.
Seems to me having a better pitching staff is the difference.
In any event, the whole thing was handled very poorly.
My guess is this catcher to blame narrative will start taking on water from the start, and will be resting on the bottom very quickly.
Yeah I doubt that this new arrangement will last very long. It seems untenable for multiple reasons.
According to Rosenthal, who knows all, Oakland’s ask for Murphy was Nootbaar, Donovan and “a young power pitcher”. Mo wouldn’t say whether he’d do it now, calling the question unfair. It did get me thinking, that’s two thirds of what may be our starting outfield. So lets think about what that would look like.
Let’s say we’ve got Murphy behind the plate, so what does our outfield and lineup look like? And is that a winner?
BP is getting in on the fun now.
Bedeviled Cardinals Scapegoat Willson Contreras
by @GinnySearle https://t.co/5ET6DlOynX pic.twitter.com/aozarYHhMJ— Baseball Prospectus (@baseballpro) May 8, 2023
“Demoting” Contreras due to pitch calling makes no sense. Pitchers can direct what they want to throw, and between innings the battery can talk about what is working and what to go with in various situations.
If there is an issue with Willson’s defensive game other than pitch calling, that could be an issue. But it would not seem to be something un-workable.
The whole thing is weird. Think the coaches and manager need to call everyone in a room and tell them to work it out. We are a better team with Contreras at catcher and someone else at DH, so figure it out guys.
BikeMike,
Totally agree with what you say.And a few wins will cause all of this to blow over.
Din-din today is a thick center cut rib chop in the air fryer, a couple ears of corn, a glass of water, Ruffles potato chips, and a couple of those ice cream things with nuts on top for dessert.
r/Esteemed Rat
Another in a long line of patently laughable characteristics of this manager and coaching staff’s inherent inability to display any sort of grasp on common reason is as follows…It’s the image that we’ve been afforded during the telecasts of the last couple of games. The images are of a veteran 8 season Big League catcher who’s been situated behind HP for a total of 30 post-season games, one of which was the 7th game of a WS in which he and his teammates secured a WS Championship. He’s standing on the dugout steps flanked by two guys who haven’t even finished sipping half of their proverbial cups of coffee…These two whiz-kid nobodies are supposedly instructing him on the finer points of being the receiving end of a Big League battery. I can only speak for myself, but in my view, that scenario is not at all unlike one of a 13 year old school girl instructing Elizabeth Taylor on the finer points of snagging a husband…
Well 1td the hoodie kid had exactly the same amount of big league managerial experience as his two predecessors. Notice the trend?
You hit the nail on the head Pugs! Oops, I mean, 1td. The Cubs won a World Series with him behind the plate and in Game #7 to boot. Plus they won alot of games over that five year period with him behind the plate. I am sure if he was a terrible catcher that the Cubs would have done something about him a long time ago. In fact, he was THE LAST one of the nucleus that left Wrigley Field.
There’s nothing wrong with Contreras. It’s been all blown out of proportion. Leave the guy alone.
r/Esteemed Rat
I’m not at all alluding to the contrast in managers, gscottar, although Matheny played a game or two as a member of a Big League team. Moreover, as far as I’m aware, neither he nor Shildt ever asked Molina to hold hands and pay attention on the dugout steps…In my estimation, the dark humor is found in an image of a papoose attempting to teach old indian tricks to a seasoned warrior brave.
Yeah, human language hasn’t the ability to illustrate the degree of ill considered and silly that the entire premise puts forth, Rats. They’ll have to come up with a fancy stat for it. Something like, +RIdT, IgYDF%…Maybe that can explain it…Haha!
You can’t learn the right way to play baseball if you are spending all your time squatting behind home plate and running around on a baseball field.
In my estimation, the dark humor is found in an image of a papoose attempting to teach old indian tricks to a seasoned warrior brave.
Perhaps the manager was advising Contreras to pay closer attention to Mo’s spreadsheets to avoid any philosophical differences.
I am still baffled on so many levels. If I were DeWitt I would be asking the Front Office some very pointed questions. How can this happen?
I listened to the Cardinal pregame show yesterday. They interviewed Benji Molina. He believes the primary issue is pitch execution and not pitch calling.
I heard the same “echo” on MLB Radio this morning. Yes, Contreras may not be the best defensive catcher in MLB. However, he has won a lot of games at the ML level. It really feels like he is being used as a scapegoat.
Further, a few of the analysts pointed out that the Cardinals staff does not have a staff full of “swing and miss” guys. Pitch execution becomes even more critical as the margin for error is slimmer with such a staff construct.
Ugh!
bikemike said:
The whole thing is weird. Think the coaches and manager need to call everyone in a room and tell them to work it out. We are a better team with Contreras at catcher and someone else at DH, so figure it out guys.
Looks like that is what Waino is talking about.
#STLCards catcher Willson Contreras said RHPs Adam Wainwright and Jack Flaherty were a part of the recent discussions regarding his position shift. He didn’t elaborate about what was said during that summit with the front office, coaches, pitchers and himself.
— John Denton (@JohnDenton555) May 8, 2023
#STLCards RHP Adam Wainwright on meeting with Willson Contreras: “What we did was we sat down yesterday and just poured into him. We love this guy. We're glad he's here and we want him to be our guy. I think he took it well. Honestly, I don't know if anyone's ever told him that.”
— John Denton (@JohnDenton555) May 8, 2023
Well, let’s see…If my ERA was around 6.29 and I allowed 10 ER’s in a little over 2 IP’ed during my last turn I’d be worried. I’d have to think of something pretty quick. If Molina was still here, I wouldn’t be able to take this opportunity, so as long as I’m now afforded the option…
The whole thing is weird. Think the coaches and manager need to call everyone in a room and tell them to work it out. We are a better team with Contreras at catcher and someone else at DH, so figure it out guys.
This is unheard of stupidity to have it played out in public like this. Coaching/managing that is incompetent enough to let it devolve to this point in the first place is too incompetent to orchestrate a solution among the players. The head-spinning fact that Mo had to be involved is strong evidence of that.
But then again, Mo has gotten rid of some of the guys who might’ve solved this without him even being aware it was a problem. Spreadsheets are not good at solving problems of this nature. Valued, seasoned, respected manager/coaches should be your “go to” for these kinds of issues, but that’s not important in Mo’s model of baseball ops.
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