What do we do? / Contreras controversy

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  • #218730
    thejager
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    So…what do we do?

    Thoughts?

    Over the years the answer I usually go with (despite by proclivity for trade idea posts) is patience. Patience and some faith.

    This year somehow feels different though, I can’t quite put my finger on it, but something feels off. No Yadi is big, no Waino early is big. But there is plenty of leadership out there. It’s not Oli I don’t think, but maybe without the vets next to him for better or worse in Alberts and Maddux, and even losing Skip i think hurts. Is it the shuffling of TOO many players in and out TOO often? maybe? Is it depending on Jordan Walker so quickly? WBC? Is it just a bad slump? I don’t know.

    I do know the team has plenty of quality. I do know they will not blow it up and throw it all away. they won’t fire Moz or the entire coaching staff and Dewitt won’t step down. They also won’t decide to trade it all off the cuff like SD or Seattle. They won’t call up all the kids either.

    There is no easy answer, but I don’t think patience and faith alone will quell the issues and right the ship. And finger pointing does nothing.

    So then, what do we do?

    #218731
    thejager
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    Obviously, I have some ideas and thoughts, as i posted the topic, but I am curious to read other people’s ideas.

    There are all sorts of obvious ones, that an be tried but I truly wonder WHY you (and I) think what we think will truly make a difference and make up at least 10 games to get us back in the hunt

    #218736
    gscottar
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    I don’t think anyone has any good answers jager, including the Cardinal brass.

    As you mentioned the Cardinals don’t usually make wholesale, sweeping changes. They tend to make incremental moves and that is what will probably happen here.

    A couple of things I would do:

    1. Play the best defensive lineup. It may be robbing peter to pay paul but I have more faith in our defense to help with run prevention than I do our offense to overcome our rotation and a porous defense.

    2. Make some internal changes with the rotation. Waino will be added. Liberatore needs to be added. Maybe Hudson later. Flaherty, Mikolas, and Monty will stay for now. Woodford either goes to the pen or Memphis. Matz either goes to the pen of DFA’d (won’t happen).

    3. Consider a managerial change. As I have said before I think our problems go higher in the food chain than Marmol but the facts are that the front office is not going to be changed, therefore to shake things up, a change may have to happen. We aren’t going to bring in a veteran. It would either be McEwing or Clapp. Flip a coin.

    If we are still in the same sad shape in July then the Cardinals should consider moving some players to at least recoup some investment. I am talking about players like Flaherty, Montgomery, DeJong, O’Neill, Stratton, VerHagen, and maybe Cabrera or Helsley. I don’t know what we could get in return but it would be something.

    Now if you wanted to get a major return then you could dangle someone like Arenado to bring back some big time pitching prospects and then move Gorman to 3B, but the Cardinals probably won’t do that.

    Then I would treat August and September basically like spring training and play the young guys to see what we have for 2024. A lot of playing time for Walker, Liberatore, Thompson, Graceffo, and maybe Winn and Herrera.

    Just my two cents.

    #218744
    Marilyn Green
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    We don’t do anything but wait for the offense to play better.

    The rotation is mediocre, that isn’t changing. Maybe Flaherty figures it out and gets better. The rest are what you see now. They can play at the margins, like bring up Liberatore and send down Woodford, but with Waino coming back I don’t see the need for him unless someone gets hurt. Matz isn’t going anywhere.

    The bullpen is the only place for movement and that generally happens anyway in a good year.

    Too early for trades, so just wait it out.

    Making Marmol a sacrificial lamb accomplishes nothing.

    #218746
    blingboy
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    In other words, do nothing. Fortunately, that is Mo’s specialty. The first bit of good luck we’ve had.

    #218750
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Other than grouse, what would you do, bling?

    Personally, I don’t like it, but I have to agree with Marilyn. They are very limited right now in what they can do and it isn’t likely going to matter much unless the key guys they already have play better.

    #218751
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    I like a lot of what gscottar says. Just a couple of thoughts.

    Pitching: Obviously Waino will get some regular starts to see if he still can get big league hitters out. Woodford probably goes to the ‘pen or back to Memphis, although he has nothing to prove there. Meanwhile management is likely having trade talks that include Jake.

    Then I think you have to bring up Liberatore and put him in Matz’ spot, or use a six-man.

    Offense: We have several players who are similar – Yepez, Burleson, Walker, O’Neill, Carlson and Nottbaar. All other than Ty have more potential than actual production to this date in their careers. Somehow we have to figure out which 3 or 4 of those guys we want to keep, and which do we dangle in trade talks.

    O’Neill has probably worn out his welcome. He was great in 2021, but has not been able to sustain that production and would seem to be a candidate to trade, as a trade partner would be willing to see if a change of scenery can get him back on track. His speed/power combo and good defense is tough to give up on, but then when you look back, he just has not learned pitch selection and discipline at the plate like you hoped he would have by now.

    Bottom line, a couple of those outfielders are probably going to be gone in the hopes that we can bring in better pitching. It’s a gamble as you just hope we keep the guys that end up maturing in a positive manner and have very good careers, and that whatever we get back is as good or better than what we give up.

    Unfortunately this management team’s track record on that in recent years is terrible. Whatever they use to assess player’s future has been off the mark.

    #218759
    blingboy
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    Other than grouse, what would you do, bling?

    Personally, I don’t like it, but I have to agree with Marilyn. They are very limited right now in what they can do

    I agree they are backed into a corner with no way out and will either sprout a pair and fight their way out, or be beaten into a pile of hamburger.

    #218762
    Ratsbuddy
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    Folks, remember this – Oscar Taveras would be, what, 30 years old now?

    Where would we be with him? It’s certainly debatable.

    #218764
    blingboy
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    MLB batting line:

    248 PA – .239/.278/.312/.590 OPS+ 66

    #218765
    Oliver
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    Arenado has been bad so far. No doubt.

    #218768
    1toughdominican
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    As to the question, the only thing you can do is be thankful that tonight affords another opportunity in the form of a game in which to take the field and try to secure an elusive W. Personally, I’m looking forward to it despite the fact that tonight’s game may well prove to be another disappointment. That’s just the way baseball’s formulated, so to speak. I’ve heard it said that the game of baseball is not at all unlike an exceptionally beautiful woman in the sense that it’s designed to not only bring immense joy, but to also entirely break your heart. I’m guessing that anyone who’s watched for more than a minute or two, knows this to be the reality.

    #218771
    blingboy
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    Yes, anything can happen on a given day. The worst team doesn’t go 0-162 and the best team doesn’t go 162-0.

    #218782
    Cards667
    Participant

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    Consider a managerial change

    Was the wrong guy hired? I know I wanted Skip, but we got him as the bench coach. Was he more valuable to the team than we thought? He’s got the Marlins at 16-14 right now with Cardinals cast off Mabry as assistant hitting coach and former Cardinal Jon Jay as 1st base coach.

    #218786
    1toughdominican
    Participant

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    It can’t be denied that if Skippy was affording even a modicum of attention to his surroundings in his playing days he couldn’t have helped but to latch on to a morsel or two of some pretty good managerial and coaching ability. There were quite a few names during that era that consisted of LaRussa, Duncan, Oquendo and McKay. He also played with 3 Cardinal HOF’ers. I’d say he’s qualified.

    #218787
    Steve60
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    Since you ask here is what I would do
    1) cut Knizner and bring Herrera up! He can’t be any worse
    2) bring up Liberatore and start him every 5th day! See if he can do it!
    3) bring up Walker move him to left field and play him everyday
    4) tell Carlson he is the everyday center fielder and live with it
    5) platoon O’Neill and Noot in right field
    6) if things don’t get better by trade deadline Sell Sell Sell and try and get some prospects for people like Flaherty and Montgomery who you won’t have next year anyway
    7) make room at the trade deadline for Masyn Winn to play everyday

    #218788
    1982 willie
    Participant

    Hard to say what could be done right now. I said that pitching was our weakness during the off-season and management did nothing to fix that. Now is this team capable of getting back into the hunt, yes but lots of stuff is gonna have to happen. Mikolas and matz have both lost speed off their pitches, I thought waino should have retired last season but we will see. Personally maybe the best thing that could happen is happening. Being in last place can light a fire sometimes with management.

    #218792
    blingboy
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    tell Carlson he is the everyday center fielder and live with it

    You can’t live with an OPS+ 65 from an everyday outfielder. I know, reality sucks.

    #218793
    Steve60
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    Yes Blingboy, I would play him everyday in May and if his OPS is still bad then get rid of him! I suspect if you wanted you could find a stat that would make it hard to play any of our players right now with the exception of Goldy! Not sure if playing Carlson everyday is the right thing to do but I am sure it is what I would do! We gotta find out if some of these young guys can do it and if not get rid of them!

    #218921
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    I like Steve’s suggestions. I would also bring Yepez back and get him some ABs. He is one guy that can provide power. I would bring up Liberatore and Yepez, and DFA Motter and either Ver Hagen or Stratton.

    Think I’d keep Walker on the farm longer and have him play every day. He and Winn will be on the 2024 team.

    #218922
    Onyxgem
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    Unfortunately the FO is not smart enough to do anything to turn this around. They made their bed by doing jack and squat this offseason and even the previous offseason but going after cheaper options at sp instead of better ones.

    #218926
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    There are two articles found on Yardbarker:

    Reinforcements Reportedly On Way For Cardinals; Could Turnaround Be Imminent?
    Originally posted on FanNation Inside The Cardinals
    By Patrick McAvoy | Last updated 5/3/23

    Sounds wonderful but the “reinforcements” in this story was Wainwright…. that’s it.

    Cardinals Fan-Favorite Slugger Could Be Traded According To Recent Speculation
    Originally posted on FanNation Inside The Cardinals
    By Scott Neville | Last updated 5/3/23

    The fan-favorite is Tommy Edman. In this scenario, we’d lose Edman to acquire a starting pitcher…. a starting pitcher the FO failed to get us in the off-season. Preposterous.

    Also on VEB were these thoughts from stlcardsfan4:

    These are gut feeling last place team thoughts here, not thoughts from an analytical mind. Cannot emphasize that enough. The Cardinals have sucked the analyzing part of my brain away from me.

    Last thought before I exit: For the love of god, give Adam Wainwright some damn respect people. I am so annoyed at the fanbase regarding Wainwright. I hate using this comparison because I love the guy, but you would think we were running 2021 Matt Carpenter out there. Or the pitching equivalent. Does anybody realize that Adam Wainwright was actually good last year?

    The writer sounds like he is losing a part of his mind. Writers are seemingly at a lose for words and this is the stuff they need to write while the team is treading water…. just to write anything. What is one to believe while we are following the Cards and hoping for something positive to happen. Something stinks in Denmark. UGH

    #218933
    thejager
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    I keep going back and forth from lots of things to just a few. But we are 11 under now.

    We definitely need a jolt.

    the “please be patient” time is over…the boos last night showed it pretty clear…the fans are upset and want to see a change. The FO should know the faith of their supporters can’t go away this early in the year, they need that summer revenue and a last place team with nothing to play for is not going to get the kids and families crammed in.

    And a once a week “last chance to see Waino” isn’t going to cut it like the Yadi and Pujols send off sales push they got last year…add in the team was playing well to boot

    I am usually the last person to scream for a managerial change…but I don’t see another major JOLT to the coaching staff and for the players that can happen to show that they are serious about fixing things

    I like Oli but i think he just lost too much of the veterans around him that helped him last year. We wanted change in coaching, but it was too much

    Clapp is respected and I think he gets the nod. you could go left field and give it to McGee but i don’t think he wants it. I don’t like suggesting the managerial change, but the FO isn’t going to blame themselves

    After that…some moves within the org Waino and Libertore up, Woodford down, Matz to pen. Zuniga or Jojo back to AAA…Yepez up Motter gone to AAA hopefully

    That’s it for moves

    Front office should be working a trade for a starter using some combination of Yepez, Burleson, Oneill, Nootbaar, DeJong, maybe Edman or Donovan

    Eduardo Rodriguez from Detroit might work for are building Tigers team looking for young power
    Maybe SD would deal Trent Grisham? I have always wondered if her needed a change of scenery. Maybe Michael Taylor or Max Kepler from the Twins?

    As for lineup: I am a fan of sticking with something and seeing it through. the DH’s can rotate, but the left hand lineup and the right hand lineup should be pretty much set. Same goes for batting order. No options tried for less than a week.

    Someone mentioned going defense first. I would agree. Puts a lot of power on the bench so makes late game pinch hitting tough as it hurts the defense late.

    Edman
    Donovan
    Carlson
    Arenado
    Goldy
    ONeill
    Nootbaar
    Contreras
    DH Yepez and Gorman (RH and LH platoon)

    what order they are in, i am not sure, but they play every day either at DH or in the field. Contreras gets 1 day off a week for rest, but he bats in DH spot.

    Knizner, DeJong, Yepez/Gorman, Burleson

    Mikolas, Monty, Waino, Jack, Libertore
    Helsley, Gallegos, Hicks, Genesis, Jojo, DVH, Stratton, Matz

    So…

    – Oli out Clapp in
    – Yepez in Motter out
    – Libertore, Waino in Woodford, Zuniga down
    – Moz works phones for trades one good starter, and maybe a better hitting short term outfielder, while Jordan gets ABs and works on defense
    – stop messing with lineup and order evaluate after each week

    Anyways, i have enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts

    I am trying to practice patience…but man…last night was a tough one

    Sorry so long…as usual

    #218940
    jj-cf-stl
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    We hand out 6 runs or more like it was holloween candy. When we get a decent start, the lineup is on vacation or the pen implodes.

    I like the lineup, but like the pitching staff much less. When Montgomery is the only significant add still on the roster from the last two seasons, we’re pretty much getting what wasn’t paid for.

    If that is surprising to you, SIGNIFICANT PITCHING ACQUISITIONS NEEDED !!!
    I’m sure the regulars are tired of that broken record.
    You built it Mo and it’s broken. You fix it.

    #218941
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Lotsa ideas. What caught my eye was trades. They can start talking now, but no deals are likely happening here at the start of May. Even later on, they probably aren’t going to be able to acquire a starting pitcher who will make a difference in return for a quantity of marginal players or guys who used to be better than they are now.

    Everyone wants to be the team that gets the best player in the trade.

    “Yepez, Burleson, Oneill, Nootbaar, DeJong, maybe Edman or Donovan” won’t excite many.

    Of them, only Edman is a sure thing. Other teams are going to want Walker or Winn or Hence. That is where it gets sticky. Do you risk any of the future to try to resuscitate 2023?

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