Home › The Cardinal Nation Forums › Open Forum › Wainwright’s late season problems + 2023 return
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October 26, 2022 at 2:53 pm #205512
One of the MAIN keys to the 2023 season is Jack Flaherty. Is he finally going to perform the way everyone has hoped the last 2-3 years.
October 26, 2022 at 3:23 pm #205514Rats…Well, how do you hope he performs in ’23? He barely worked with just 36 IP in ’22, and was 9-2 with an ERA of 3.22 in 15 GS and 78.1 IP in ’21. I disregard ’20, but he’s arb eligible this Feb. and can apply for FA after the ’23 season. I don’t think he plans to remain in St. Louis so, he may be working for a big payday during the ’23 season. That may be a good thing if he’s looking to cash in, which I’m reasonably certain he is.
October 26, 2022 at 9:46 pm #2055331982 willieParticipantI don’t know. Personally I was hoping waino would retire. I know he said it was his stride but to me it just looked like a guy staying a little too long.
October 26, 2022 at 11:35 pm #205540Adam will probably be one of the top 2 or 3 Cards’ starters again next year. Speaks well of him, but probably says more about the oveall reliability of the rotation. Not a lot of swing and miss there. Unfortunately, the last few seasons the guys who have been touted as swing and miss end up being more like sling and miss.
October 27, 2022 at 4:24 am #205544A starter who can be relied upon to answer the bell is indeed a gold nugget, which is why Mo needs to make a effort to sign Quintana. Excluding 2020, he has started 30+ games 8 of last 9 years. Nothing we have can touch that. He turns 34 this winter, and has been basically a .500 pitcher with an OK but unexciting WHIP and K rate, so a contract would not be too exorbitant. But he is exactly what we need to provide some stability to the rotation. Sometimes a Ford that starts when you turn the key is better than Ferrari that is in the shop half the time.
October 27, 2022 at 8:06 am #205551I think Wainwright can have a role on this staff as the 5th starter but he needs to skip about every 3rd start to keep his arm fresh.
I will believe 2019 Flaherty is back when he makes 10-12 consecutive starts without going on the DL AND is being mostly dominant. Until then you just can’t count on him.
May be Arenado has some leverage with the club to say ‘I will stay but only if you go all out to bring in the talent to really compete for a WS title, not just a broke down division title.’
October 27, 2022 at 1:03 pm #205563LeeParticipantWaino should hang up his cleats. He has had a super career. Now he will be flirting with the “I should have retired” scenario that players face when they realize they should have gone to spend more time with their family. He would help the Cards out more if he came back as a pitching coach or assistant.
October 27, 2022 at 1:23 pm #205565Pitching skills aside, four Cardinals were nominated for a ’22 NL SS Award today and it was mentioned that the last Cardinal to win that award was none other than Adam Wainwright in ’17…Haha! I miss seeing him swing the bat. The best hitting pitcher that I can remember was Don Robinson who mostly pitched with the Pirates. He was about the size of Pujols and was no joke when he stepped into batter’s box when his 9 slot in the order came around.
October 27, 2022 at 2:56 pm #205568I didn’t see this posted before so I’ll add it…looks like he’ll make $7.5M this year and defer $10M. He can also get some extra dough with incentives. This moves projected payroll to about $138M.
The 41-year-old Wainwright agreed Wednesday to a $17.5 million, one-year contract that includes $10 million in deferred pay and the chance to earn $1 million in bonuses for startshttps://t.co/LcWw2HzULm
— KMOX St. Louis News (@kmoxnews) October 27, 2022
October 27, 2022 at 3:17 pm #205569Cot’s is showing our payroll at $149M right now. They include deferred salary in annual payroll and I think the reason why is because the team actually will set aside the deferred salary in 2023. It just won’t go to Waino until the future. I guess it allows the team to collect interest on it, I don’t know.
October 27, 2022 at 4:32 pm #205570stlcard25…The incentives ought to include a provision for PH duties.
October 27, 2022 at 4:49 pm #205571Cot’s is showing our payroll at $149M right now. They include deferred salary in annual payroll and I think the reason why is because the team actually will set aside the deferred salary in 2023. It just won’t go to Waino until the future. I guess it allows the team to collect interest on it, I don’t know.
It seems to me like the entire purpose of the deferment is to allow the team to spend more next year. So I’d say they are closer to the $138M figure. That accounts for Arenado’s deferred salaries too.
October 27, 2022 at 4:49 pm #205572stlcard25…The incentives ought to include a provision for PH duties.
He could be a better PH than Dejong.
October 27, 2022 at 4:58 pm #205573stlcard25…He can hit. He was the last Cardinal to receive a SS Award. I’d have to look it up, but I’m pretty sure he’s been summoned from the bench to PH a couple of times in his career.
October 27, 2022 at 6:00 pm #205575Wainwright’s career batting line as pinch hitter
26 PA, 5 H, 3 RBI, 2 BB, 9 K, .238/.292/.286/.577
That is only 5 points under the 2022 overall NL BA of .243
But now he is 41, that’s 99 in pitcher years.
October 27, 2022 at 6:16 pm #205577Bling…Haha! I knew I had seen him come off the bench to hit at least a handful of times, but never would have guessed almost 25 PA’s a PH’er. He could always hit. Incidentally, I’m sure you remember the successful PH sac-bunt laid down by Lohse in game 6 of the ’11 WS. If he doesn’t get that bunt down, we don’t win that WS. Little nuances coupled with gargantuan walk-off HR’s is what makes the game the best there is.
October 27, 2022 at 6:55 pm #205580Being as I was reminded that the overall NL BA in ’22 is .243, it got me to thinking that Mario Mendoza would actually be a decent hitter these days…
October 27, 2022 at 8:47 pm #205581Speaking of pitchers who could hit, my dad told a story about catching a home run hit by Don Larsen at Sportsman’s Park in the early 50s when Larsen played for the STL Browns. Larsen was a nobody at the time so dad just gave the ball to kid sitting near him.
October 27, 2022 at 10:10 pm #205583I’ll be darned. I never got a HR and didn’t get a foul ball until well into my 30’s, so I sure wasn’t going to give it away…Haha! BTW, mine was also hit by a nobody…Bret Boone when he was a Red.
October 28, 2022 at 9:28 am #205600It seems to me like the entire purpose of the deferment is to allow the team to spend more next year. So I’d say they are closer to the $138M figure. That accounts for Arenado’s deferred salaries too.
I don’t think it works that way. Roster Resource does it the same way Cot’s does, by listing the deferred salary in 2023. RR actually has our current payroll at $152M. The deferred money has to be listed somewhere. I have never seen the Bobby Bonilla deferred money of $1.1M listed on the Mets payroll even though they have been paying it since 2011 and will until 2035. It was probably listed on the payroll when they did his contract. Same with the Max Scherzer deal with the Nats.
Like I said, I think teams set aside the deferred money now but pay it out later. They can earn interest plus there is the issue of current value of money vs the future value of money. Also, MLB is not going to allow teams to use too many tricks to avoid the luxury tax. They don’t want teams giving out a $100M contract but only counting $10M now and $90M ten years from now.
October 28, 2022 at 9:56 am #205602bccranParticipantWaino by month –
Apr – 5 starts / 4.00 ERA / 1.556 WHIP
May – 5 starts / 1.69 ERA / 0.875 WHIP
Jun – 5 starts / 3.66 ERA / 1.375 WHIP
Jul – 5 starts / 3.90 ERA / 1.083 WHIP
Aug – 6 starts / 2.50 ERA / 1.059 WHIP
Sep – 6 starts / 7.22 ERA / 1.919 WHIPThe ironic stat is that his best innings were the 7th and 8th. How many times is that through the lineup?
October 28, 2022 at 10:04 am #205604bccran…How many 7th and 8th innings did he log?
October 28, 2022 at 10:27 am #205605I don’t think it works that way. Roster Resource does it the same way Cot’s does, by listing the deferred salary in 2023. RR actually has our current payroll at $152M. The deferred money has to be listed somewhere. I have never seen the Bobby Bonilla deferred money of $1.1M listed on the Mets payroll even though they have been paying it since 2011 and will until 2035. It was probably listed on the payroll when they did his contract. Same with the Max Scherzer deal with the Nats.
Like I said, I think teams set aside the deferred money now but pay it out later. They can earn interest plus there is the issue of current value of money vs the future value of money. Also, MLB is not going to allow teams to use too many tricks to avoid the luxury tax. They don’t want teams giving out a $100M contract but only counting $10M now and $90M ten years from now.
I get what you’re saying in terms of luxury tax..MLB will account it that way. MLB wouldn’t nor shouldn’t let the teams do fuzzy math to avoid luxury taxes. Nor would the players union let it becone the rule rather than the exception, as that’s taking real earnings away from the players. That said, there’s no way the fans should allow money that’s not being spent in 2023 to be considered a part of the 2023 budget. I don’t care if it’s being set aside or not.
When Mo said payroll will increase, if he means on this sort of technicality, he should be tarred and feathered and run out of town.
October 28, 2022 at 10:53 am #205608I don’t claim to be an expert on MLB accounting rules but three of the major websites that report payrolls (Cot’s, Roster Resource, and Sportrac) all list deferred money in the current year of the contract. I am assuming they know what they are doing but I couldn’t 100% attest to that.
October 28, 2022 at 4:55 pm #205635STL is still making deferment payments to Matt Holliday but you don’t see that in any annual payroll accounting by anyone.
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