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Throw of the year right there! Man, that was clutch. Winn with the two strike homer and Carlson with “The Throw”.
Powerful motivational win. Plus the Marlins wore out their pen and we didn’t. What a throw by Carlson. And a good catch and tag by Pages.
I don’t expect them to win 17 in row any time soon, but on June 17th of ’21 the Cardinals were 1 game above the .500 mark.
Sweet little foot nudge by Carlson to further entrench that ball in the bottom of the wall. I wonder if it was intentional? You know if that call had not been reversed and the runner was at 2nd base instead of 3rd, then that beautiful throw to home plate by Carlson never happens and who knows, maybe we don’t win. And how about Kitty giving us 2 quality innings. Yeah he had a minor hiccup or two tonight, but as usual Kitty gets the job done. Even though he’s a bit long in the tooth, I still want Kitty to be inked to a nice little 2 year deal.
Well, yeah Pugs, if they rule it a GRD Gordon stays put at 2B after the fly ball to Carlson in RF and there’s no DP and only 1 out, so who knows? I was a little surprised they sent Gordon on that fly ball to a relitively shallow depth in RF with no outs. If he stays put at 3B with only 1 out, he may have been able to score later in the inning. We’ll never know and that’s okay by me…Haha!
Kittredge and Fernandez both did fine, Pugs. Kittredge didn’t surrender a solitary ER. Romero was the pitcher that BB’d the first guy he faced to place the tying run in the box and then allowed the 3 run tater to La Cruz to tie the game. That lousy move was on the Redbird manager for going out and getting Gray at 84 pitches and still protecting a 4-1 lead.
“That lousy move was on the Redbird manager for going out and getting Gray at 84 pitches and still protecting a 4-1 lead.”
Yeah, that was inexcusable by Boy Genius — unless Gray himself asked out of the game, which I very much doubt.
The quick hook was rationalized by someone here, saying that Jazz Chisolm was due up. Well, it was a man on first and two outs in a three-run game. Removing Gray because Chisolm could potentially pull his team within a run with a homer…well, that’s micro-managing from fear, if not outright panic. Really bad decision-making.
Instead of the Redbird relief corps throwing 4 1/3 innings tonight, Gray could and should have gone the whole way and given the pen a night off. He had no trouble throwing 100+ pitches last year, with zero ill effects in his follow-up starts.
Specifically: 2023 Sonny Gray, 5 starts between 101 and 107 pitches, next 5 starts 28 IP and 7 ER, for a 2.25 ERA in the follow-up games.
Even if only on general principle, it’s a very good idea to stretch your starters out every once in a while, so they don’t completely lose the ability to comfortably throw 100, 105 pitches when needed.
Marmol is terrible, and Winn + Carlson bailed him out tonight. But even in victory, the bullpen threw 4+ unnecessary innings thanks entirely to managerial incompetence. And that may influence tomorrow’s game, or the day after. That’s what bad managers do. Their poor decisions leave ripple effects for days or weeks or sometimes much longer.
I understand the desire to have a lefty work to Chisolm, but there were 2 outs with a solitary runner aboard and, at that juncture, the deepest wound Chisolm can inflict is to lift the Marlins to within 1 run. Heck, Gray could have stayed in the game to BB Chisolm, which is what Romero did with him. At that point, in steps the tying run in the form of the RH’ed hitting La Cruz who promptly takes the lefty deep to tie the silly game…Haha! I thought it was a double dumb idea to bring in a LHP’er to face Chisolm when the best he could do was make it a 4-3 game.
Edit…Yeah, it should never have been that degree of a struggle to win that game. I realize that it’s never easy, but “Boy Genius” made it way harder that it should have ever been to place that game in the desired column.
So to recap, with their best starter going, the Cards needed 12 innings to edge the team with the worst record in the NL. Hurrah!
Brad T said during the broadcast that Gray was gassed when taken out but I don’t know how he would know that “fer sure”. At times, Gray has admitted he was done and didn’t argue with being taken out. I don’t know if that was the case here.
I do know that Chris Carpenter would have wanted the complete game and fought to stay in. Times have changed.
So with Romero warming up the whole inning to cover in case Gray got into any trouble, so Gray wouldn’t have to face Chisholm again, the right move was to let Gray face the Marlins left hander a 4th time rather than go to our best lefty reliever who had been warming up the whole inning for just that purpose? What if Gray walks Chisholm again or just gives up another hit to him? Now are you bringing in JoJo to face the righty? People would be screaming at Ollie for being stupid and not just letting JoJo get the lefty out. Guys, it’s JoJo that failed. Not Ollie. Ollie did the smart, reasonable thing and sometimes the best move to make fails. Had it failed the other way, you’d still think he was an idiot because he didn’t do the right thing. JoJo walked Chisholm on 5 pitches. JoJo gave up the 400+ foot homer by leaving a ball up. Just because we like him doesn’t mean it wasn’t on him to pitch well.
Again, we don’t know what Gray said to Oli, if anything. Given the situation, two outs, one on with a three run lead (as 1tough explained), I would have expected my ace, who had thrown just 84 pitches, to want to get out of the inning himself. And in the worst case, if Chisholm homered, the Cardinals still would have been ahead. Then, pull Gray and start over with two outs and the bases empty. Less pressure on the reliever.
I don’t know who to blame but what they tried did not work.
I think Ollie didn’t want the tying run coming to the plate so he brought in his best guy to make sure that didn’t happen. But it didn’t work out. Gray was starting to miss his spots a little in the previous inning so he did look to be wearing down a little. Obviously, we don’t know exactly how he felt at that time. And you’re right, rightly or wrongly, Carpenter would have wanted to stay in there.
I’m just defending him because I think Ollie’s being unfairly called stupid for making a very reasonable move in that situation. It wasn’t stupid at all. It just didn’t end up working. Leaving Gray in may have had the same results and that actually would have looked stupid in hindsight given that JoJo was ready and that Chisholm had already beaten Gray 3 out of 3 times.
For me, the difference was that Gray and the Cards would have still led even if Chisholm homered. Either you have confidence in your ace or you don’t. I am just being repetitive so I will stop there.
I am not blaming the manager because we don’t have all the details. But ultimately, he is accountable whether it works or not. I admit I did not listen to his post-game to see if there was a better/different explanation.
Those who don’t like Marmol will jump on him at every opportunity, despite no situation being black or white. It goes with the territory.
I can understand Gray coming out with 85 pitches when he threw 30 pitches his previous inning.
But since that occasion, he has been limited to 85 pitches or fewer roughly five times.
Is he an ace or is he merely good two times through the lineup or is Oli playing games because Gray removed himself from a game when the manager would not?
I’m with J on this one. Oli has made the same move w/JoJo dozens of times already because he/we trust him.
This time JoJo failed, so those that are laying in the weeds ready to pile on Oli when a reliever fails, they need to show up every time a reliever succeeds. Of course it’s hindsight. Show up in a game thread and call it live.
Until then, their comments remind me of a drive by shooting, where they disappear again, into the night.
I don’t think Gray gets the benefit of the doubt on this one. He may fashion himself as a warrior but he lost a little credibility with me when he motioned to the dugout to come get him in the 6th inning on May 20. No way Cris Carpenter would have done that.
I also see that Arenado went 0-6 last night. That is hard to do.
My two cents – I would have left Sonny in. Your ace at 84 pitches should be able to get through the 8th inning. Not only Carpenter, but can you imagine what Bob Gibson would have said? Different era, but I think had Sonny stayed in it would have really meant something to the rest of the starters.
But had he been knocked around, well then as jnevel said, we would be barking at how Ollie messed up again.
Is Gray 100%? He started the season IL. His pitch doesn’t suggest that he is to me.
Asking to come out? He’s made a month of starts since, so I’m not offended if he felt something (hammy?) and played it safe.
If a mid-80’s pitch count is going to be their management of him, there must be a reason why. The last months worth of starts fits the trend.
GmSc of 63, well done Sonny.
he lost a little credibility with me when he motioned to the dugout to come get him in the 6th inning on May 20.
And he threw 32 pitches that inning because Winn made two errors in the same inning.
Him coming out in that game doesn’t bother me. It’s their limiting him to no more than 85 pitches ever since that bothers me.
Asking to come out? He’s made a month of starts since, so I’m not offended if he felt something (hammy?) and played it safe.
Him coming out in that game doesn’t bother me. It’s their limiting him to no more than 85 pitches ever since that bothers me.
Well we can’t have it both ways. Sonny is celebrated for being bold and transparent when waving to the dugout to come get him in the 6th inning but then when the dugout comes to get him on their own a few weeks later with two outs in the 8th inning then somehow Sonny is being robbed of an opportunity.
I guess you could argue that those two situations are completely different but that seems convenient. As jj pointed out if there is some kind of underlying medical concern that is governing these decisions it would make it more understandable.
“This time JoJo failed, so those that are laying in the weeds ready to pile on Oli when a reliever fails, they need to show up every time a reliever succeeds. Of course it’s hindsight. Show up in a game thread and call it live.”
Speaking just for myself, JJ, I could come to these game threads pretty much every single day and enumerate the parade of idiocy that is the Ollie Marmol Administration. The starting lineups, batting orders, basepath timidity, pitching changes: nearly every game Marmol makes another choice that reduces the team’s chance for victory that day, or meaningfully undermines player development, or both. But I am fond of the posters here, even those with whom I disagree vehemently re Boy Genius, and want to spare them my self-indulgent, repetitive critiques.
But last night was an exceptional display of managerial stupidity. I had to either punch the television or publicly vent. My sanity gain is your loss.
I used to rail against LaRussa for leaving his starters in beyond the 115, 120 pitch mark on a fairly regular basis. Well, Marmol proves that the pendulum can indeed swing too far in the other direction. When Cardinal A-ball kids are consistently throwing 90-95 pitches, but veteran major leaguers in their 30’s are limited to 80-85 offerings, there’s a serious disconnect within the organization. Or inside Marmol’s tiny brain, at least.
To me it’s pretty simple. If the Cardinals were protecting a 2 run lead, the absolute correct move forever and always would have been to go get Gray and hand the baseball to Romero to face the LH’ed hitter with a baserunner aboard and Chisolm standing in the box representing the tying run. However, that wasn’t the case. Perhaps the Cardinal manager made a simple mistake in his arithmetic and confused the 3 run lead with a 2 run lead. Perhaps he should keep an abacus handy on the top step…Haha!
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