StL 2019 Game 78 thread: Sun 6/23 vs. Angels

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This topic contains 106 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by Avatar gscottar 3 weeks, 3 days ago.

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  • #95579
    BlackHillsCard
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    So much for that optimistic feel. Pretty much par for the course with the Cards medical history.

    I only talked about the question marks regarding the Cardinals pitching staff during spring training and was dismissed because obviously the Cardinals are one of the better suited teams.

    Meanwhile, no Gomber, no Helsley, Mikolas is having a slump year, Reyes has been a non-factor and now injured, CMart is having to pitch out of the bullpen, Flaherty hasn’t been very good, Cecil and Gregerson are wasted contracts, Brebbia is now slumping, Leone imploded, Hicks is done for the year, and Miller is an old worn out pitcher. All is fine.

    #95580
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    gscottar
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    Good grief.

    Earlier today it was a triceps cramp and the debate was whether to put him on the IL or let him rest a couple of days and be ready for the weekend. Now he has a torn UCL and probably out for the season????

    Who did the initial diagnosis??? Otis from the Andy Griffith Show??

    #95582
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    forsch31
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    We don’t know what was allowed to be released about the condition. Also, what does it say if they put out that it was a UCL tear before the official results are in.

    I will say that a triceps cramp seems a strange diagnosis for a UCL tear, though.

    How many teams have had at least 7 pitchers have the injuries the Cardinals have had.

    #95584
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    We don’t know what was allowed to be released about the condition. Also, what does it say if they put out that it was a UCL tear before the official results are in.

    Don’t release anything then. Just say you’re doing more tests. The Cardinals have done this repeatedly with injuries, this isn’t a one-time screwup on the PR department.

    #95603
    Brian Walton
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    Those who would label the press release a “screw up” are those who already have a bone to pick. As far as the team supposedly “having done this repeatedly”, this is the first time I recall seeing a release with interim information only. If someone can provide another example, please share it. The release provides a significant update on his condition based on the MRI, but no final answer. That is unusual, but is not a screw up. Obviously with the team off today and no reporters around, they chose not to wait to get the new news out ASAP. My guess is that once he gets a second opinion, Hicks will decide what he wants to do. (Further, the “PR department” does not issue releases without the permission of the front office.)

    Had the Cards said nothing, the complainers would accuse them of withholding information. Some seem almost impossible to satisfy. Once you decide you don’t like the organization, anything they do can be presented negatively.

    It stinks that Hicks is injured, but how it is communicated isn’t going to change anything that matters. If won’t speed or slow his recovery. All the rest is noise, IMO.

    #95616
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    Minuteman3
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    Great post Brian. You echo my sentiments. I don’t understand why anybody is complaining. What would the Cardinals gain by withholding the Hicks information? Are there a bunch of gamblers around here that would lose money on not having that info? I look at it as just plain old bad news that our closer is out for the season and probably most of next season also if he has the operation. As for the Cubs new closer, it is a case of the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence – the guy hasn’t tossed a single pitch yet but he is being described by some as our big loss. Of course that is the fault of the FO. No use n beating this dead horse any longer.

    #95622
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    I’m not specifically talking about the press release announced on Twitter yesterday. Im talking about Shildts comments a few days ago where he said more rest and it was a triceps strain. He obviously got that info from someone and was permitted to release that info to the media. Then turns out to be wrong, which is the screwup. But defend away. That’s not the first time it’s happened. Those that want to ignore the organization’s shortcomings will do so with gusto and throw facts to the wind.

    #95631
    Brian Walton
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    What a wonderful world it would be if all initial medical diagnoses were 100 percent accurate. Then x-Rays and MRIs and even second opinions would be totally unnecessary. (Some times, though I don’t know if applicable in this case, they have to wait for swelling to go down to make a better determination of the injury.)

    They got more information and shared it in a timely manner. If you think you are being purposely misled, step back and ask yourself why they would do that? Just to have to correct themselves later? Makes no sense. Taking offense seems misplaced and is due to unrealistic expectations.

    Like I asked before, what does it matter in the big picture of Hicks’ recovery what was thought initially, anyway?

    When one is swinging a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    #95632
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    It doesn’t change the injury but it continues to shine light on the problems within the organization. Fans get sick of this being a regular occurrence and it continues to show that problems within the organization haven’t abated. What would be a wonderful world would be for the team to be competent in how they handle injuries. They should have said, “We don’t know the seriousness of the injury yet because we need to run tests.” Don’t send Shildt out to the media saying, “He just felt a little fatigue in his tricep area. Nothing too crazy — more of a cramp. … Doctors feel optimistic, he feels good.” If I did something like this for the companies I work for I’d have my butt chewed out for releasing stuff premature. This should not be too much to ask for but here we are.

    #95635
    Brian Walton
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    BHC said:

    “Those that want to ignore the organization’s shortcomings will do so with gusto and throw facts to the wind.”

    If you read my mid-season report card for the organization, for example, which you didn’t, you would know better than to make accusations such as this. I pride myself as being objective. I also have working knowledge of the organization that anonymous posters here do not and share some of that information and perspective.

    #95636
    stlcard25
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    Personally, I’m much more worried about the lengthy string of injuries that the Cards have suffered the last few years (and what that says about the competency of the medical staff) than about how management has handled reporting the information. Without getting all the data, it seems like the Cards have been near the top of the league for injuries each of the last 3-4 years. Perhaps that’s an area that can be upgraded in the future.

    #95638
    Brian Walton
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    I don’t have time right now to do the research, but Man-Games Lost tracks this type of info. They are a subscriber site.

    Here is 2019 data from six weeks ago. The Cards looked to be somewhere in the vast middle ground. The Yankees, as has widely been reported, have been pounded by injuries this season.

    #95639
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    Minuteman3
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    Now that is one chart that blows my mind. What is it supposed to mean? The Yankees according to this chart should be on the bottom of MLB in wins. Instead they lead their division. San Fran is at the bottom in wins and also in injuries. Also ages of the injured seem to play no part in the chart. For this old bird it is something I do better at not seeing as, at least to me, it is meaningless gibberish. Perhaps I should change my screen name to NOSTATMAN…..lol

    #95640
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    gscottar
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    I think BHC’s comments regarding the team’s medical misadventures have some legitimacy because this is a trend not an isolated case. While their miscommunication doesn’t change the end result it does lead to a lack of confidence. It makes one wonder if they are that incompetent in that area then what else are they that incompetent on? Is there a correlation between the medical staff and our annual rash of injuries? Any objective person would have to wonder.

    #95641
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    If you read my mid-season report card for the organization, for example, which you didn’t, you would know better than to make accusations such as this. I pride myself as being objective. I also have working knowledge of the organization that anonymous posters here do not and share some of that information. You should open your mind a bit instead of being negative about most every subject. But so it is…

    You have me so pegged, Brian. 3 years of missing the postseason (possibly 4) and repeated failure 7 years in a row sure does give one a lot optimism. You’re right, though, I should be happy we’re 3 games over .500, our offense is one of the worst offenses in the league, Shildt has a losing record since his extension, and the organization’s pitching depth has evaporated. There’s just so much to be happy about. If only I had rose colored glasses to wear all the time I’d be set.

    #95643
    Brian Walton
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    BHC, I had already deleted my last two sentences as none of us should expect others to change their posting style. That includes me. The portfolio of our comments speak for themselves.

    #95645
    Brian Walton
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    gscottar asked:

    Is there a correlation between the medical staff and our annual rash of injuries? Any objective person would have to wonder.

    The May 2019 data I had already posted offers a partial answer. I don’t have prior years at my fingertips but it may be possible to locate. I don’t recall the Cards consistently standing out in the past compared to the other MLB teams. Any team’s fans are naturally going to be more familiar with the injuries from the team they follow.

    The competency of staffs is pretty much impossible to measure, but the info provided by sites like ManGamesLost moves the scale from a more perception-based discussion to one with some fact and broader context behind it.

    #95649
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    gscottar
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    It probably is true that we notice the injuries of the Cardinals more than we do other teams but I did find this chart from last year which indicated the Cardinals injuries were very high.

    https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-disabled-list-tracker/

    #95650
    Brian Walton
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    OK, here is the graph for the entire 2018 season. The Cards are certainly not the worst. (The size of the circle is most important, IMO, as it reflects total WAR lost. If you just look at the horizontal placement, Mike Trout is the same as Mike Mayers.)

    Maybe if someone here subscribes to the site, they can share a few of the actual numbers behind this graph.

    #95656
    EuroWolf
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    Well then, let’s hope the Cards’ brass doesn’t lay another year of “just missed the wild card” at the feet of the injury bug.

    If it happens, just man up and say you’re ultimately responsible for everything: player acquisition, roster depth, roster quality, player development, coaching, medical staff, drafting/scouting players/teams, metric analysis, etc. — and for some reason we’re just not meeting expectations in recent years. It’s okay, every game has to have a winner and loser. But sounding like political spinners so often is wearing thin on a significant portion of the fan base.

    #95659
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    gscottar
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    I don’t know if man games lost and roster resource are tracking injuries the same way but according to RR in 2018 the Cardinals had the 2nd most DL stints and the 5th worst roster effect.

    Again, I am not a medical professional so I would have no way to determine if that is just a fluke or if the Cardinal medical team is making errors but when they routinely make poor judgments on their initial medical diagnosis it doesn’t give me a lot of confidence.

    This is an area that the late Joe Strauss used to harp on a lot. I recall that he was very dubious of the Cardinal medical staff and/or PR staff’s interpretation of events.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by Avatar gscottar.
    #95669
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    14NyquisT
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    I would say that Euro’s assessment is very accurate especially the the tie to political spinners. I guess that if the brass had to admit their responsibility regarding roster quality and player development, well that won’t happen… maybe and rarely in a parting speech by an upstanding person.

    As far as the Hick’s reporting fiasco goes… no news would have better than fake news.

    #95672
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    gscottar
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    #95673
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    PadsFS
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    BlackHillsCard

    Im talking about Shildts comments a few days ago where he said more rest and it was a triceps strain. He obviously got that info from someone and was permitted to release that info to the media. Then turns out to be wrong, which is the screwup. But defend away.

    BHC, the tricep is the muscle that connects directly to the UCL. He could have a tricep strain (strain is a tear) and a UCL tear. When I tore my ACL, I also tore my miniscus, my MCL, and I had a hamstring strain. My knee didn’t pop or hurt even, but it felt like a knife was being stabbed into the back of my leg….due to my hamstring.

    Honestly though, this isn’t ground breaking knowledge.

    #95675
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    14NyquisT

    As far as the Hick’s reporting fiasco goes… no news would have better than fake news.

    Again, read above, but like BHC, it seems you’ve already made your mind up that the Cardinals front office is deviously trying to misled the fans about the injuries of players.

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