Stats – Some you can live without

Home The Cardinal Nation Forums Open Forum Stats – Some you can live without

This topic contains 35 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by Avatar Minuteman3 3 months ago.

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 36 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #88136
    Avatar
    Minuteman3
    Participant

    Free

    Is this what our sport has come to with relation to stats:

    “According to Statcast, the 95.5-mph pitch had a spin rate of 2327 RPM and a pitch height of 3.04 feet, and Hader had an extension of 7.1 feet. It exited at 106.1 mph and traveled an estimated 399 feet with a launch angle of 20 degrees and a hang time of 4.3 second.”

    Hopefully there is no test on this claptrap.

    #88139
    bicyclemike
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    It is getting ridiculous. It is a little like the sponsorship stuff, where the announcer will say “And we head into the bottom of the fifth – if you are at the bottom of your fifth head in to Jack’s Liquors, where you always get a great deal”. I am sure we will start to see comedy sketches on this over-blown stat stuff.

    Even the stat they always show on television about how a guy has done with RISP bothers me a little. That information does not tell me much. What I want to see is the guy’s overall numbers. The RISP numbers have a lot of randomness to them as they are small subsets of a player’s overall ability. He’s more likely to hit the way he has all year, or throughout his career than how he does with RISP.

    #88150
    Avatar
    1982 willie
    Participant

    Free

    I could do without most of them. I just want the traditional ones, maybe war. I don’t mind that others exist for teams and players to look at, I just don’t need to see them when they are batting or hear about them constantly from announcers.

    #88154
    Avatar
    Minuteman3
    Participant

    Free

    WAR is the one I wish they would blow up. Totally unprovable bunch of numbers. Stat geeks pull it out of their rear by using one of their homemade formulas. One common number you hear is how a player has been batting against another team. For example Molina has been playing the Reds since 2004 or 2005. I doubt that the Reds have the same team they had in 2004 so the number is meaningless as it implies that this batter will consistently hit so much against another team which no longer has the same players. JMHO.

    #88164
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I am more of a traditional stats guy myself also but some of the new stats are ok. I think WAR can be useful but the defensive metrics are sketchy. As for pitchers I really like looking at batting avg against and WHIP. Those two stats alone can usually tell what kind of a season a pitcher is having. ERA can be skewed by one really bad outing.

    #88245
    Avatar
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    gsc, I also like the stats you use to evaluate pitchers. I also look at K/inn. and BB/inn. and I use Game Score to get numbers to check progress and regression as the season moves along.

    #88255
    Avatar
    Cardinal in France
    Participant

    Free

    These days we are absolutely drowning in stats, to the point that it’s almost wringing the joy out of the game, obscuring the beauty that is baseball. I know that many of you live and die by these things, and that’s OK. And I know that old fuddy duddies like me are a vanishing breed. But the numbers on the back of a baseball card (do they still have those?) are enough for me. It seems a shame to reduce The Boys of Summer to lines of figures, and despite what many of you believe there are some things that simply can’t be measured.
    I also wish somebody would pull the plug on that statcast thing and oblige these broadcasters to give us more real descriptions of stuff on the field that we can’t see on our screens.

    #88268
    Avatar
    Minuteman3
    Participant

    Free

    Cardinal in France. When it comes to stats we are birds of the same feather. But even some of the so called ‘conventional stats’ are very misleading. A pitchers won/loss record is a prime example. He can throw 4 2/3 innings and get pulled. He can get the loss but not the win. The next guy can throw one pitch and get the win. Just seems to be wrong. An quality starts – an agents invention – don’t get me started on those.

    #88269
    Avatar
    Cardinal in France
    Participant

    Free

    Minuteman: Yes, I understand the game is changing and I quite agree with you on W-L. Remember when things like complete games and shutouts were considered desirable?

    #88336
    BlackHillsCard
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    The more stats the merrier. There’s a ton of stats that tell the story of how well a player is doing: BABIP, wRC+, ISO, etc. etc. I love em all.

    #88573
    Avatar
    TheLonelyBull
    Participant

    Free

    I find this topic kind of funny minuteman, considering in another thread you state your belief in Fowler in CF comes from the fact that he started there for a WS champion. Now that is a statistic I can do without.

    #88610
    Avatar
    Minuteman3
    Participant

    Free

    “I find this topic kind of funny minuteman,”
    Sure doesn’t take much to humor you huh?

    #88934
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    This is a long article and may require a subscription but I found it to be fascinating. Another example of how Moneyball changed MLB front offices forever. This is a great read about old school and new school baseball.

    http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/26544614/how-farhan-zaidi-left-berkeley-became-baseball-pioneer

    #90354
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Those who don’t like new stats likely avoid Fangraphs, however there is a new article there that includes metrics which help explain the differences in the Cardinals this season.

    #90358
    Avatar
    Minuteman3
    Participant

    Free

    My reputation is cemented as one who doesn’t care to be bombarded with stats each and every batter in each and every game. Name one other sport where stats are shoved down a viewers throat as they are in baseball. If you love them I am happy for you. For me I look at them as something that is just trying to form my expectations of what a particular player will do. I prefer to just watch the actual product instead of being told what that player HAS done in the past.

    I realize that I am a minority here with relation to stats. I have a masters degree in industrial management and have been bombarded with stats in many other parts of my life so, for me, baseball is a chance to getaway but that is not happening lately. Sabremetrics are great for discussions with persons of a like persuasion. With that, I will take my lashing and no longer comment on the subject.

    There are worse things in my life – having to listen to McLaughlin and McCarver (add Horton too) drives me nuts. I have come to the belief that they are all blind after the 3rd inning and find that it is great sport to entertain themselves with stories from 30-40 years ago while there is a game going on right in front of them. Rarely will they interrupt one of their stories midstream to describe a happening in the game such as a runner picked off or a hit batter. All shucks there I go again drifting off topic.

    #90359
    Avatar
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    C’mon Minute, how do you really feel about the newer metrics:) I agree with what you are saying. Its probability that the masters of the game are searching for, but as I like to say… you still have to play the games. Watching the games still has some entertainment value.

    #90361
    Avatar
    Cardinal in France
    Participant

    Free

    Minuteman, I think you must be wearing the other half of my amulet.

    #90605
    Avatar
    TheLonelyBull
    Participant

    Free

    “Sure doesn’t take much to humor you huh?”

    When people ridicule advanced metrics but rationalize absurd and arbitrary metrics of their own, yes, I find that hilarious. I probably even find it funnier when people lack humility, so this thread is a double win for me.

    #90614
    Avatar
    thejager
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Stats are built into the game, and adding new ones has been happening since the beginning. We take RBI’s and Saves so seriously as if they were always a part of the game. they weren’t HR’s werent the way we think of them either with the ballparks being different. Even the changing of the mound and every other change to the game in the past are what we all take for granted as being “pure”.

    The game has evolved, including the stats.

    We raise up some stats to be legendary signs of the greatness of baseball players throughout time, and others we do not or at least havent YET.

    Anyone can dislike or like any part of the game, but trying to posit SOME stats or stats in general as not being a part of the game is being willfully ignorant to what the game is and has always been.

    I may not understand all the new ones nor have all the time in the world to study them yet, but that doesn’t mean they dont have value YET whether in and of themselves and/or for other people.

    #90624
    Avatar
    Minuteman3
    Participant

    Free

    I promised to no longer comment on the thread I started but oh how I ache to do just that. Silence will be golden in this case. I need to return that half amulet. I need one of my own…….lol

    #90648
    Avatar
    PugsleyAddams
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Go ahead and pull the trigger, Minuteman3. Sometimes it does wonders to get it off your chest. You’re amongst friends here……with the possible exception of the esteemed TheLonleyBull.

    #93609
    Avatar
    Cardinals27
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I found a link on WAR by position. Seems rather sketchy to have our second basemen 1st, and our catching 19th. Too high at 2nd, and way too low by catcher. I really dislike WAR for the most part, only sometimes do I find myself inn agreement with the numbers derived from it.

    By position:
    Catcher 19th
    First Base 8th
    Second Base 1st
    Third Base 22nd
    Short Stop 5th
    Left Field 11th
    Center Field 6th
    Right Field 17th
    Starting Pitching 25th
    All Pitching 19th
    https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/team_compare.cgi

    #93613
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    The conclusion I draw from that is the Wong could be on the way to his first Gold Glove.

    #93626
    Avatar
    PugsleyAddams
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Believe it or not, there was a time I scoffed at stats such as wOBA and wRC+. Wanted no part of them. Then it hit me…….don’t get old Pugs! Embrace these new useful tools with the gusto of a little schoolgirl opening up a package of LOL goodies, and you’ll stay young forever and ever. So now give me a heeping portion of BQR-S, IR-A, IR-A%, LD% and SIERA…..and I’m a happy camper!

    #93640
    Avatar
    RememberDiz
    Participant

    Free

    Stats can be meaningful or deceiving. I tend to look at all stats as being tools. But, there is no perfect tool. A hammer is a lousy screwdriver.

    I can remember making a study of a year with a Texas Ranger slugger who hit well, drove in a lot of runs, and the Rangers lost. In midseason, they traded him to a team in a pennant drive, and he continued to hit and drive in a lot of runs. But, the Rangers had a losing record with him, as did the new team. Both had a winning record without him. But, he may have been baseball’s leading RBI man that year. Only when you watched him daily did you notice that he might drive in four runs in a rout, but strike out when they needed a hit in order to win.

    I would like to see one stat that I have yet to see: moving runners along. That’s an old school stat that winning teams seem to notice.

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 36 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

First-hand news and commentary on the St. Louis Cardinals™ and their minor league system for 20 years