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There is certainly no guarantee Contreras will be on the roster in 2024 so I would play Herrera and Kiz a lot the final two months.
Right on Scotty! If you were to vote right now for the most improved St. Louis Cardinal thus far here in 2023, who would garner your vote. My vote hands down would be for Andrew Robert Knizner…..and it has next to nothing to do with his 2 tape measure taters in last night’s contest.
I wish we could have the Knizner-Herrera combo going forward. But we are stuck with senor Contreras. Nobody is taking that contract.
Thanks for all of the responses, guys!
One thing I didn’t bring up before with Winn, is the Rookie Of The Year possibility for next season. If he comes up in the next few weeks, that chance is lost when his rookie eligibility evaporates. And the potential R.O.Y. bonus of an extra first round draft pick evaporates with it. That has to factor in. For me, anyway.I think Masyn could handle the promotion right now, but it’s a gray area decision on whether to call him up — and this is assuming DeJong is traded and shortstop is open. I’m sure I would feel very different if the Cards were a couple of games from the Wildcard, a la the cubs. But Marmol’s mismanagement has made the playoffs a near impossibility. (And yes, Mozeliak gets a chunk of blame, too. But the obvious difference is, Mo has a long track record of good-to-very-good results. Marmol does not.)
As a point of reference, Knizner’s offense this season is about the same as DeJong’s, a good-field at a premium position, but below-average hitter that most fans consider to be expendable. But at age 28, this is Andrew’s best year by far. He did receive regular at-bats last season when Molina was on the IL and did not excel, but he is improving offensively.
I was at the game last night. A couple of things that surprised me… We got to our seats early about 25 minutes before first pitch. There was a kids choir that came on to sing at 6:25 (20 minutes before first pitch on week nights) ‘God Bless America’ followed by the singing of our National Anthem, ‘The Star Spangled Banner’. Even after all these years, those singing of those songs is still a moving experience for most Americans. It’s ashamed that these two songs weren’t done in the final minutes before first pitch, like the way it used to be when the final two words of The Star Spangled Banner were often ‘Play ball’. The other thing that struck me was that Knizner now looks like a Major League catcher. He just seems to have that vibe and confidence level when on the field. Before this year, When Knizner was Yadi’s backup, he always looked like a AAAA catcher, it seemed. I agree with Pugs that Knizner is the most improved player this year, although I’m sure that many would argue that Gorman is a better fit for that assessment.
Winn has the same pronounced open stance at the plate like Walker and Herrera. It must be the latest thing these days. Just imagine if hitters like Stan and Big Mac had benefited from the amazing minds in player development now days. We waited 100 to find out how to hit right.
So because three players have a similar stance in your opinion, all of whom are good hitters, it is an indictment of player development? Really? Your negativism is without bounds…
I’d say it’s disgraceful that they no longer have everyone rise for the singing of the National Anthem immediately prior to the declaration of, “play ball!” and the start of action with the first pitch. The last Big League game I attended was in early August of ’22 and the conclusion of every half inning was immediately followed by the powerful PA system incessantly blaring the sort of music which was not only of the type of bad taste that would genuinely give a woodpecker a headache, but was also so excessively loud and overbearing that the only term to accurately describe it would be obnoxious. If you shouted at the person you were attempting to talk with, you could barely carry on a conversation. There were several other instances that could be termed as anything from odd to unpleasant that I won’t go into, but all in all, it simply wasn’t the highly enjoyable ballpark experience that I’d come to grow accustomed to for almost 60 years.
Bob-
Thanks for the ROY reminder. I’d be very tempted to wait till late enough in the year to bring up Winn that he would still be a contender next year. I agree with those saying that it would be good for Winn to see time in MLB this year to begin to get acclimated. I’d raised the concern over the marginal prospect who would be left unprotected to the Rule 5 if Winn is on the 40-man. I’m skeptical that I would worry that much about that player. But I’d rather make the decision knowing who it would be!
I do not know who is to blame for the sorry state of the organization, so I’m not handing out passes. I accept that others can if they want, for whatever reason, but my own view is that the blame is widespread.
I have to agree with Bobs assessment of keeping Winns ABs down to give him a chance at ROTY n 2024. Although I was hoping Walker would be this years ROTY. The question is how many games could he play to maintain his ROTY status?
Hi 27-
Players lose rookie status at 130 AB or 45 days on the active roster. Call him up Sept. 1 when rosters expand?
Mud, I had missed your comment concerning Knizner yesterday. I agree he has a different and better on field presense this year. He’s a gamer who has earned something more than propping up Contreras.
Is it in the club’s best interest to get Winn up asap and get as long a look at him this year as possible – with the most at bats possible – or wait until the last month when 2/3 of the league has thrown in the towel in order to see if he might compete for ROY?
The odds that any one player from any one of 15 teams will win the Rookie of the Year is so low, it would not be wise (putting it mildly) to delay promotion decisions this year just to chase that low possibility next year.
Delaying an MLB-ready player to try to get a draft pick who might contribute in three or four years (but maybe never) would be a poor tradeoff, IMO. If a ROY happens, great. But slowing down progress to try to make it happen is chasing the wrong target.
The question that we should be asking is: “What will best prepare the Cardinals to win the most games over time?”
Starting Paul DeJong, let alone Taylor Motter, at short ain’t it. Your team stinks, you have thrown in the towel for this season. Start preparing for next.
I’m assuming we’re still seeing DeJong and also O’Neill mainly to position them as everyday starters for trade purposes. There is no future in DeJong and if they go into another season counting on O’Neill I will pull my hair out. If I had hair.
I think they intend to hang on to O’Neil.
Dejong is a goner but he will start most games until he’s traded…. May as well I guess with Edman out.
When he’s gone that should open up the roster spot for Winn I would think.
I do not know who is to blame for the sorry state of the organization, so I’m not handing out passes. I accept that others can if they want, for whatever reason, but my own view is that the blame is widespread.
I totally agree bling. This has been a total failure from top to bottom. I don’t buy the theory that Mo gets the credit for us winning 93 games last year but Ollie gets the blame for the collapse this year. That makes zero sense.
Even if I agree with you both, what does that have to do with the batting stances of Winn, Walker and Herrera that are supposedly lacking? That is the path bling headed down with his indictment of player development.
Is the connection supposed to be that since Mo and Oli have done a terrible job, so have the minor league hitting coaches? The three players’ offensive results actually look pretty good, but there must a hidden problem somewhere that has raised the ire of our resident cynic.
Seems to me that this is a bigger stretch than usual, especially since Winn may be the hottest hitter in the system right now and Herrera has the second highest OPS in the organization in 2023.
Maybe it would be better to single out Kramer Robertson and Tres Barrera. 😉
Odds of getting ROY are not high, for sure. Walker was a favorite this year and won’t get it. But I’m not sure of the cost of having Winn spend another 3-4 weeks in AAA before coming up, too.
My money is also on O’Neill sticking around. At least till the offseason when, hopefully, he’s had enough playing time to be more attractive if they want to trade him. Maybe trade him for pitching then, with an OF of Donovan, Nootbaar, Walker, with Edman as 4th OF/late defensive sub/backup SS and 2B.
Its too much of a coincidence that the three of them show up with that similar, and previously rather unusual, pronounced open stance. Not that its bad. But it suggests that player development is on the open stance kick lately. It must be a currently hip and trendy thing that the tuned in clipboard cadets know about that somehow went undiscovered for 100 years. I’m predicting Scott turns up with the open stance if he hasn’t already. It must be even worse for pitchers, judging from results. But like I have mentioned, if somebody wants to hand out passes, they can. Who knows, maybe having no pipeine is not a player development thing. There are always plenty of MiLB FAs, Indy ball guys, and foreign league reclamation projects to fill in the holes, and Mo has recent experience with all that.
Who cares how they look if they are getting results? Again, Herrera is having his best ever year with the bat. His Memphis OPS is .989 for Pete’s sake. Winn is the likely Player of the Month for July. Why are you criticizing them? Because you believe you know better how they should stand at the plate? Really? No, it is because you are mad at the entire organization from top to bottom and no one is immune from your over the top shots.
With his 4-hit night, Masyn Winn warrants an update.
Since June 14th (173 trips to the plate) the slick-fielding 21-year-old shortstop is batting .338 and slugging .663, for a Ruthian isolated slugging of .325. Okay, that’s an exaggeration. Babe Ruth’s all-time record isolated slugging was .348. (Josh Gibson’s was .346 though of course that wasn’t against MLB competition.) So Masyn probably isn’t as good a hitter as Babe Ruth yet. But he is showing very nice power. Very, very nice.
And better by far, Winn has been crushing the ball for the past seven weeks without sacrificing contact. In fact, he has decreased his strikeouts substantially while increasing his power immensely.
Specifically, from Opening Day through June 14 the 21-year-old fanned 54 times in 295 PA’s for a strikeout rate of just over 18% — which isn’t bad at all these days, but it was attached to a meager isolated slugging of .106. I personally slid him out of my top 10 overall prospects and into the 15-20 range.
But since then he’s whiffed just 23 times in the aforementioned 173 plate appearances for a superb 13.3% failure rate. Again, accompanied by an astronomical .325 isolated power tally. Nobody reading this needs to be told that an extreme power/contact profile is the best of all possible exactas for a hitting prospect.
There is now a non-trivial chance that by his mid-20’s Winn will be the best-hitting and best-fielding and best-baserunning shortstop in the Senior Circuit. I can’t rate him the equal of Jacksons Holliday and Chourio as a prospect, but he’s a clear #3 overall for me with Jordan Lawlar not far behind.
Masyn Winn should be the starting SS in StL.
It’s not an excuse to ‘preserve his rookie year’
Edman can have some days off and give other guys days off. We know what he can do.
If Winn is in fact the real deal and Gorman is THE 2nd baseman then, with Donovan able to play almost anywhere – Edman becomes a trade piece.
But we HAVE to know about Winn as soon as possible – as in get him in the lineup yesterday.
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