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last year they didn’t have the depth to cover the injuries to Flaherty, Matz, and VerHagen (if we want to count him). They certainly do have that this year.
Last spring we had a list of names just as long as this year. All the stated reasons for optimism were exactly the same, as were the reasons for concern. Some guys have one more year of experience and some guys have one more year of injury history. We can hope for better luck. That seems to be the plan anyway.
Last year, we had 2 of our 5 go down for pretty much the whole year. Hopefully it doesn’t happen again in 2023. But if it does, the backups – Woodford, Pallante, Thompson, etc. have more major league experience now. That’s a real plus.
Last spring we had a list of names just as long as this year. All the stated reasons for optimism were exactly the same, as were the reasons for concern. Some guys have one more year of experience and some guys have one more year of injury history.
Slightly different list (Montgomery). Different year.
It seems like this is an on-going situation with the FO.
We can hope for better luck. That seems to be the plan anyway.
Good one Bling.
Yes. If we carry 2 lefties, we need 2 that look good. Right now, Suárez and Thompson look the most impressive. But since he’s not on the 40-man roster, he’s more of a long shot as he needs to be clearly better than someone who is.
BW. nice article on Woodford. guess we’ll see what the FO wants to do with him.
NOTE: he is 26, not 27 until after the season.!
You all contributed. Often times, discussion here inspires me to write. I will fix the age. No one past the age of 21 wants an extra year added!
So the FO views the 1st round of the draft as how you build a bullpen?
Thompson needs to be in Memphis starting. Show the commitment to develop an ace.
Sign a mlb reliever(s) and quit robbing the developmental starters to fill the pen.
There are too many starters in development to fill just five spots with St. Louis. Some have to move to relief.
The rub seems to be in which starters should move to the pen and when. Draft pedigree isn’t a factor at this stage, several years later. Different people have different favorites in the race.
At the most extreme case, they sign scrap heap veteran relievers while they use the Memphis rotation to help sort out the future starters for 2024. The 2023 Memphis rotation could have eight legitimate starters.
How would that work?
Hudson
Liberatore
Thomas
Thompson
Pallante
Woodford
McGreevy
Graceffojj…. I agree. The best example of what you’re saying is Lance Lynn. They tried to make a reliever out of him. Burned me up at the time.
Hudson- should have been non-tendered
Liberatore- AAA rotation
Thomas- AAA rotation
Thompson- AAA rotation
Pallante- 5th, 6th, 7th inning reliever mlb
Woodford- same as Pallante
McGreevey- AAA rotation
Graceffo- AAA rotationOur rotation will be so weak the pen will require at least two mid-innings relievers to get to the 8th and 9th. It will require early pulls instead of a “take one for the team memtality”. This lineup can comeback vs run decifits if the SP isn’t allowed to bury the game.
BW…. would it be possible for you to put those eight into three tiers. (as of today)
tier 1 next-up candidates
tier 2 solid candidates for starters @ MEM
tier 3 on the bubble.Does anyone else want to take a shot at it? I’m having a little trouble sorting them out
jj… I didn’t see your post. Good assessment. Your Memphis rotation looks pretty damn good. We’ll see what the organization thinks and how it pans out on AAA opening day March 31st… Memphis @ Charlotte(CWS)
Brian-
I think you’re right about the depth point, and I expect it will have Woodford start in AAA, albeit with more starts in MLB this year as 6th starter.That’s an interesting and intriguing set of 8. I’ll add one (unlikely) name, Cabrera. If he doesn’t make it north in the bullpen, I wouldn’t rule out giving him lots of innnings in AAA to try to get right. But that seems unlikely.
To get to your list of possible AAA rotation, that would suggest a major league bullpen of, say, Helsley, Gallegos, Hicks, Ver Hagen, Rodriguez, Stratton, Cabrera, and Misiewicz. So I wonder which of those 8 I’d bump with one of your 8 potential AAA guys. I’d probably drop either Stratton or Misiewicz. I think the latter has an option, though it would leave only 1 lefty reliever. And I’d add one of the 8 as a long reliever. I’d probably go with Hudson.
I’d move Thomas to the pen in AAA. I’m skeptical his future is in the rotation.
I’d leave one of McGreevy or Graceffo in AA, expecting them to move up when someone in the AAA rotation gets hurt or moves up to MLB.
So I guess my Memphis rotation is:
Pallante
Woodford
Thompson
Liberatore
Graceffo or McGreevyPart of the goal is that two of them (Pallante and Woodford?) serve as 6 and 7th starters this year and show enough, and rack up enough innings, that they can be in the MLB rotation next year with Matz and hopefully two resigned guys of Mikolas, Flaherty, and Montgomery.
That said, I bet instead that Thompson and Hudson are both in the MLB pen, Stratton dealt, and Misiewicz optioned. We’ll see.
The FO will string Woody along until next spring when there will be openings in the rotation. He has something like 120 MiLB starts and 600 or so IP, so I hope he doesn’t get sent down. BP work this year and rotation next I think.
I have been away from the computer for a few days and am just now catching up on this thread.
Euro Dandy, your post from March 10 at 1:33am was absolutely spot on and masterfully written. I couldn’t agree more. But this is how the Cardinals handle their pitching staff most years. They go into it with a lot of hope and fingers crossed and figure if things blow up they can try to fix it at the deadline. Frankly, it isn’t a bad strategy if your goal is to win the weak NLC while keeping as much powder dry as possible but if you have higher aspirations then a different strategy will probably be needed.
This rotation looks like a lot of our previous rotations. A bunch of number 3 and 4 starters with varying degrees of upside and varying degrees of injury history and combustibility. I suspect it will be good enough to win the division again since our position player group looks rather robust but I still don’t see us matching up well against the elite teams in the postseason. Personally I think games in April and May should be viewed as seriously as games in August and September are. They all count so why wait until July 31 to put your best foot forward?
Bill likes to acquire pitchers with 65% of their salary already paid during the season by their trade partner. It would be easy to call that being cheap, but it also allows him to debut minors pitching in the first 65%, without being blocked.
A secondary benefit BB first mentioned is avoiding injuries during the 65% stage, because you will only be acquiring healthy and ready to go pitchers at the deadline.
And my favorite, do you want to draft in the early twenties every season, or late twenties, every round? If you keep a low hanging fruit cheapo bullpen, you’ll never see a late twenties pick, and will also avoid/pocket salaries of better relievers.
If you keep a low hanging fruit cheapo bullpen, you’ll never see a late twenties pick, and will also avoid/pocket salaries of better relievers.
You should send in your resume, jj, for a strategist position with the organization..
Some real good discussion and insight in this thread. Can’t say much more than what you guys have put out there, but will say this. I have disagreed a few times with the Cardinals use of young, talented pitchers being in the bullpen.
The numbers game make is so we have to do that to some degree. But management has made mistakes. The most egregious in my opinion was Hicks. He was moved up at far too young of an age and was more or less forced to throw 100 MPH for short stints. He should have been allowed to develop as a starter in the minors, and coached to not go all out on every pitch.
Does anyone think Liberatore will ever be more than a middle to low end starter? I have watched Arozarena the last few years and cannot understand how the organization could have made that deal. I know we felt over-crowded in the outfield at the time, and lefty pitchers are always in demand. But cranny was especially outspoken against that deal at the time, and I can see why after looking back at it three years later.
cannot understand how the organization could have made that deal
Rays guy: I’ll give you my first rounder for your 10 home run guy.
Mo: DoneIn the imaginary and hypothetical case where Flaherty doesn’t answer the bell early on this season, then what? I see three choices, Hudson, Liberatore or a Pallante led effort.
Yeah, Woodford is taking Wainwright’s spot so I think you have it right.
Off days and rainouts would help as will the occasional bullpen game.
I like Pallante a lot and would like to see him get some starts. But I think he’s too important for long relief for now. If Hudson has a couple of good games at Memphis, then I’d say let him fill in for as long as he can. Liberatore, IMO. is much improved over 2021, but I’d like to see him continue that improvement in Memphis unless Hudson just can’t cut it. There’s also the possibility of a trade for a pitcher.
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