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Might be an interesting topic right now. If Flaherty’s healthy, is he the ace they need? Some think he can be a Cy Young candidate. Can Mikolas return to his 2018 form? He had a 2.83 ERA in 2018, and 3.29 ERA in 2022. Not to compare the 2, but another Cardinal a few years ago who had a history of injuries was 17-4 with an ERA of 2.24 when he was 34, the same age as Mikolas. How will a healthy Matz be in a pitcher’s park with a stellar defense behind him? The same for Monty as far as the stadium and the defense behind him? In his contract year. Lastly, what about the backups? People don’t seem to be talking about Thompson’s 2.08 ERA in 2022 or Woodford’s 2.23. The bullpen? The back end seems pretty well covered with Helsley, Gallegos, and Hicks. Is flame thrower Rodriguez a possibility? What about middle relief? Is Pallante the 6th inning answer.
Lots to think about.
Let them prove it. Chris Carpenter was an ace. He had not only the tools to be one but also the mentality to be one. He was exactly what an ace is. He went to Philly a very hostile environment against a great team and opposing a very good friend and you know how he did. You think Mikolas and Flaherty can be aces. I don’t. To each his own. Quantity will never top quality not matter how you spin it. So I hope you can agree to disagree and move on.
I agree, Oliver. When I think of that hostile Citizen’s Bank Park deciding game 5 environment in the ’11 NLDS, I’m also reminded of the hostile environment that was clearly on display at old Shea Stadium during the deciding game 7 of the NLCS in ’06. The SP’er for the Cardinals in that NL Pennant clinching game worked 7 IP’ed and allowed a potent Mets line-up only two hits. He was also named the ’06 NLCS MVP on the merit of a pretty nice 0.60 ERA in 15.0 IP’ed. In addition to serving up some tasty “Soup”, he most definately featured the sort of “mentality” that is present in an “ace”…
Sorry Suppan was not an ace not even close. Look at their stats, especially post season stats. You can cherry pick all you want. One game does not a career make.
Two games as an “ace” in that ’06 NLCS. And thanks for affording me the opportunity to “cherry pick.” I like cherries. Especially in pie. Would you possibly consider the one game you cited as an example of cherry picking? I wouldn’t, but that’s just me. What I’m driving at, is at any point in time under difficult circumstances, a pitcher can rise to the occasion and feature an outstanding performance when there’s a lot of money pushed to the center of the table. This sort of event has been orchestrated countless times in the past by SP’ers who were not placed under the heading of an “ace.” Think Don Larsen, or more recently and certainly closer to home, Anibel Sanchez. Furthermore, I’m reasonably certain that you’d agree that plenty of top shelf starting pitchers have been ambushed in post-season starts. Think Max Scherzer during last Oct. or Clayton Kershaw during the ’13 NLCS. Many times the dealer of the game dictates that aces are played as low…
How many WS have we won this century without an ace? Zero. You and others think the current pitching staff is full of possible ace-like performances awesome for you. Suppan’s career is not even close to Carpenter. 2006 was a very bad performing team that overachieved during the playoffs. We can wait for another Suppan type performance in the playoffs or do something about it. But you and bccran can rest assured the former is the way they will go.
Jack certainly could be the ace when healthy..thats the big concern. and coming back from shoulder issues is much tougher than even TJ. If ST shows the young talent is still sitting guys down then they should certainly be the first to get opportunity. (specifically Zach and Woody.) Both had superb years last year.
I think Monty and Miles are solid, but Matz and Waino iffy.? It is time to cut ties with Hudson, he really struggled last year; maybe the TJ injury, but than likely just finds throwing strikes difficult.
–starting 5 are set going into ST. Jack, Miles, Monty, Matz & Waino.
the pen 8 I would have: Gio, Hels, Zach, Woody, Pallante, Hicks, Cabby + Stratton. – with the last two being the first to ride to Memphis, for maybe Romero, Packy or Kodi.I don’t think any team has an “ace” simply because I believe that term is overused and wearisome, so I entirely disregard it. Quintana demonstrated work that was that of a top-shelf SP’er in not only the second half of the ’23 regular season, but also in game 1 of the NLWC. However, I expect him to return to nothing out of the ordinary just as I expected back in ’06 from our old friend Jeff Suppan. I’ll also add, that in my view, the current Redbird projected 5-man contains at least 3 SP’ers that have the ability to feature an extended stretch of performance that qualifies to be filed under the heading of top-shelf. And that’s not even counting my favorite, Adam Wainwright.
Pretty sure Jack will be hurt before the All Star game, and maybe the same with Waino and Matz.
They have pitching depth, but keeping everyone happy and on board to start the season will be key.
I agree for the most part with Lee. Hicks & Cabby are ?, as they seem to have trouble at times finding the zone. I would say lets wait for ST and we should have a better idea then, but I actually think the front office already has 7-8 of the pitching slots filled. regardless of ST.You can call whatever you want. Without a “a call whatever you want pitcher” we haven’t won the WS. But that’s irrelevant since the Cards excel at winning the division and that should be plenty for the fans. Anything else would be gravy and not to be expected. If it happens it will be only when all stars align and that’s the Cardinal way.
Who on this elite squad of Redbird fans feels is the SP’er with the best chance of being the pitcher of decision for 15 or more W’s in ’23? Only three on the current roster have accomplished that feat. Wainwright, Mikolas and, wait for it…Dakota Hudson.
Sorry Oliver, but my favorite team has won 11 WS including 5 in my lifetime. They were all enjoyable, however my favorite was ’82. But only because I could still run fast…Haha!
I’m not sure Wins matter much but I would have to think that Mikolas has the best chance to get to 15 of them. He generally pitches deepest into games.
I think the Cardinals have 3 number 3 pitchers all with possibilities to be a number 2 or number 4. But there’s very little variance there (unless an injury occurs). Low ceiling, high floor. Then we have 2 others that are probably 4’s but could fall below that with not much ceiling above that. So that’s not great. Not even good really. But it’s probably passable because of our defense and half the games played at Busch. Plus, we should have a very good bullpen to bail us out of some jams. The other plus is that we have about 4 other guys backing our top 5 up who are all likely 5’s or 6’s. That gives us an extremely high floor that we haven’t really had the past few seasons. Overall, I think this makes our pitching fine. Not good, but not bad.
I 100% agree that it isn’t always about talent. Some guys do very well under intense pressure and others don’t. This is a factor not really seen in most stats. For instance (small sample size clearly), Mikolas and Quintana both stepped up admirably under pressure. And also for instance, most of our hitters imploded. And I think that’s generally been a trend for us in the past few postseasons. So while I expect our offense to be great during the regular season, I do worry about it getting lost in the postseason. Someone needs to be the leader and set the tone there the way Pujols or Rolen or Berkman or Beltran or Craig did for us when we had success in the past.
There was no NLCS and everyone knows about Bob Gibson, so I’ll only go back to 1982 in naming the Cardinal SP’ers for both Redbird NL Pennant and WS Championship clinching games.
’82 NL Pennant clincher-Joaquin Andujar
’82 WS Championship clincher-Joaquin Andujar
’85 NL Pennant clincher-Joaquin Andujar
’87 NL Pennant clincher-Danny Cox
’04 NL Pennant clincher-Jeff Suppan
’06 NL Pennant clincher-Jeff Suppan
’06 WS Championship clincher-Jeff Weaver
’11 NL Pennant clincher-Edwin Jackson
’11 WS Championship clincher-Chris Carpenter
’13 NL Pennant clincher-Michael WachaHow many of these names can be included in the “ace” file? Some would argue, but “Walking Underwear” certainly qualifies in my book, and Chris Carpenter surpasses that title on testicular fortitude alone. Other than those two, I can’t determine anything other than ordinary.
The Cardinals got 5 hits in the first game against the Phillies. Gorman drove in a run with a clutch single, and Yepez pinch hit a 2 run homer.
In the second game, the Cardinals were shut out.
Say what you want about an ace, but our two starters gave up
only 2 runs on 4 hits in 9 2/3 innings. If we hit the ball, we win that series.Jnevel…That’s for playing and I think you both nailed it and drove it home when you mentioned that some guys perform best under intense pressure and it’s incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to forsee that tendency by alluding to stats or even mindset. As you pointed out, some simply do and others don’t. At any rate, Mikolas would be one of my choices out of three. I’d also include Flaherty providing he can take the baseball for enough turns to work somewhere in the vicinity of 175 IP’ed. I will go on record and say that at least one member of the 5-man will record 15 W’s in ’23. I’ll say that the best chance goes to Jack Flaherty in a season in which he showcases for his big payoff as a FA. However, I’ll guess that it’s going to be Adam Wainwright simply because I don’t at all mind being wrong. I’ve got plenty of experience…Haha!
bccran…Precisely. In addition to that, the Cardinals actually out hit the Phillies .185 to .158 in those two games.
oh I am sorry. Bccran and 1tough, how could I be so blind? You are right. I can’t speak for others but I will be eternally grateful for your relentless cardinal red color glasses take regarding the 23 edition of the team. Without I would be still lost in my erroneous beliefs. Now I understand there is not such things as aces. You win. End of discussion.
I guess the question is whether any of our staff can pitch well when the pressure’s on. Guess that remains to be seen. I just remember thinking that the Cardinals didn’t have a chance going up against the Dodgers when they had those two big aces in the rotation, and sure enough the Cards rose to the occasion and won the series. The Cardinals bombed Kershaw, who had a 1.77 ERA in the regular season.
You obviously want to see the Cardinals do well as much or more than I do, Oliver. As for “red colored glasses,” if you watch and listen closely, I’m reasonably certain that you’ll notice that I’m perfectly fine with launching a well aimed and coordinated barrage of artillery fire when I’m convinced that the Cardinal bosses are behaving in a manner that isn’t conducive to my happiness as a Cardinal fan…At any rate, I enjoy talking baseball with you. There’s nothing more satisfying than a good baseball argument, with the possible exception of an argument deciding who gets the last drumstick…Haha!
bccran…Yessir, the Redbirds have worked him over a couple of times during the post-season. Both in ’13 and ’14 in which he was 0-4 with an ERA well North of 7.00…Haha!
yes for every Kershaw there is another Nola/Wheeler. and who can forget that memorable 2020 elimination game against the Padres? 9 innings 9 pitchers by the Padres…we score…well who can forget 0 runs.
Incidentally, it’s almost assured that both Clayton Kershaw and Adam Wainwright will surpass the 200 W plateau during the ’23 season. Wainwright needs 5 W’s and Kershaw only 3 to reach 200 and both have worked right at 2600 IP’ed in their Big League careers. However, Kershaw will be entering his age 35 season by the time we get underway in April, so he has a very real chance at recording well beyond 250 W’s before he’s done.
I’m genuinely not sure if I watched that ballgame, Oliver. I did watch numerous games during that dreary season and I just felt that with no fans you simply had no game. The entire thing was an authentic bummer. Way worse than any work stoppage that I’ve experienced as a baseball fan. In any event, when the time finally came when I saw all the folks and kids back in their seats and having fun watching their favorite teams play, I felt as happy as the first time I was ever alone with a centerfold…Almost!…Haha!
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