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I’ve been looking and not finding any information about Saturday’s pitchers after Woody. Looking forward to some eyewitness reports.
Looking at the spring training games thread comments and the hall of Fame comments put a thought in my mind:
Could Flaherty become the next Carlton? Could he walk after this year for more money and have a great career elsewhere?
I’d say anything’s possible, Forsch. They would both be aged 26, but that’s where the similarities end. Carlton had already been a 20 game winner and had accumulated almost 1300 IP’ed to Flaherty’s shade over 523 at that age and Carlton had won 77 games for the Redbirds to 34 W’s for Flaherty. Carlton’s arm had never experienced any infirmities and we all know about Jack. But the proverbial kicker may be that I’ve never heard of any HOF pitcher who was tagged with the nickname, “Righty”…Haha!
Jake Woodford worked mostly sinker/slider in his 3 innings today and got:
4 whiffs
12 called strikes
5 KsHis sinker (103) and his slider (101.9) graded out as his 2 best pitches last year according to Eno Sarris' Pitching+ model.
— Blake Newberry (@bt_newberry) March 2, 2023
Wow. Woodford was dialed in. If he keeps this up, the only question OM should have is,..Is he a starter or a long reliever.? Waino does not give me much confidence, and I think everyone knows Jack will be on the DL very soon.
Starter Lineup 1.
Miles
Jordan
Steve
Jack
Adam.OR Lineup 2.
Miles
Jordan
Steve
Jake
DakotaIf the FO pays attention to ST, then 2 is a viable option. If Hudson has figured things out..?
As of now, Woodford leads the staff in IP and Ks. ERA is 1.00, WHIP is 0.78. He hasn’t had calf fatigue or mystery mechanics issues. He seems adept at managing his hydration. Sadly, the computer says he’s a Ford not a Ferrari. We know what that means.
Marmol had some positive things to say about how Woody handled the Yankees murderers row yesterday.
Derrick Goold has said some pro Woody things in the paper lately, but has a realistic outlook. “Woodford asserted his bid to be in the big-league bullpen”. Never mind that he just showed exactly what we need in the rotation.
From the transcript of the Derrick Gold chat article from the 6th, before the start against the Yankees:
When asked about Woody staying stretched out in Memphis: “That’s great for the Cardinals. Not so great for Woodford. He would not get major-league service time. He would not get major-league salary. He would toil away (again) in the minors when he’s proven he can get outs in the majors, and he would be starting for some teams, but just not the team he’s on, and by working away in the minors he wouldn’t get that much closer to being free to choose where he pitches. Tough spot to be in. Truly.”
And probably the most realistic thing he could say about Woody’s situation with the Cardinals:
“As for Woodford — what does he have to do to have the role that he’s earned with all the work he’s done to meet their demands, to get outs, to continually work toward being the pitcher they asked him to be while still getting outs in whatever role they ask?
Well, he might have to be traded, honestly.”The chat was pretty interesting. Here’s the link https://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/read-the-full-recap-of-baseball-writer-derrick-goolds-live-cardinals-chat/article_0c3263cc-6d16-5e6e-8372-88133f29b8c0.html
Totally agree Lee. Woody needs to start on the roster as long reliever/spot starter; then when one or more of the 5 starters either get hurt or just don’t perform (its gonna happen, just when?), he can step in.
Woodford is pitching well enough to make the team for sure. But another factor not mentioned is minor league options, which he has but many others do not. While it is easy to say, “Just release veteran X to make room,” depth is needed over a long season due to injuries (and sometimes ineffectiveness). Releasing decent arms due to a short term roster logjam would be short-sighted for the long haul.
My view is that if Woodford is truly going to be the number 6 starter, then the best route is for him to throw 100 pitches every fifth day in Memphis rather than get infrequent work as a long reliever with St. Louis. Staying on a true starters routine would best prepare him to have success once he gets another chance to start for the Cardinals. It will come in 2023, but probably not at the end of March.
The exact same thing could apply to Liberatore, who is also having a nice spring to date.
I get why the Opening Day roster is important to folks, but it is not the be-all, end-all.
(I know some will not like this, but I am being realistic. There are a lot of factors to consider beyond individual results and the immediate roster.)
It also helps to have that Ferrari nameplate riveted on rather than Ford. The computer doesn’t use velcro for those.
Brian I totally disagree with you. Sure he has options, but if he’s a better pitcher than many who are making the team, he should be on the team to help the team WIN. The first game is just as important as the last game. We can’t just throw away games early in the season because he has a option! That is crazy.
There are plenty of arms that will be in AAA to help the MLB club when needed.Cardsfan552 is correct. Plenty of pitchers ready or near ready in aaa. Sending Woody back there is a slap in the face, when he has been pitcher so well. I think Hudson has an option as well… not sure about the others. If a pitcher, regardless of option status, is the best choice to help the club win then he should be with the club, period.
CF552, there aren’t as many choices as you think. Here are the 40-man pitchers who may start with Memphis. Most are lefties. No real proven RH depth unless Hudson doesn’t make the club.
Starters:
Thomas (L)
Liberatore (L)
Hudson or WoodfordRelievers:
Pacheco
Walsh
Cabrera (L) or Naughton (L)
Romero (L)
Misiewicz (L)One needs to pick the 13 pitchers you think will make the MLB team and go from there. Individual player decisions are not made in a vacuum.
P.S. I don’t buy the “throw away games” argument at all. If Woodford is on the team, it would initially be in long relief. It isn’t like he is the only option for that role.
Well, he should get one or two more starts before all the WBC guys are back. He can help his cause or not.
CF552 and Lee, I have a question for you. Please answer and explain why.
Would you rather have:
1) Woodford open in the StL pen and probably stay in that role?
or
2) Woodford open in the Memphis rotation and wait for an StL starting spot?
In other words, is is more important to make the team than it is to remain a starter?
Based on years of watching the Cardinals, I do not believe his odds are good to transition from long relief to starting in the majors DURING the season. The Cards might use a long reliever as a spot starter in a pen game, but for a regular spot, they want someone who can give at least five innings.
They typically say they cannot invest the time to build a former starter back up during the season once he has been in the pen for a period – unless he is sent down to Memphis first to build back up as a starter. In the meantime, they would call up Hudson or Liberatore from the example above to step into the rotation.
Though Trevor Rosenthal is the most prominent example of a good starter locked into the pen, one has to only look back to 2022 to see what happened to Zack Thompson and Andre Pallante. They were exclusively starters in the minors, but are now relievers. All appearances are that their chances to start have evaporated with the passing of time.
That is the risk I see if Woodford starts in the St. Louis pen. If so, he easily could remain there. But if you guys are ok with that, then I understand.
However, I believe his best chance to start in the majors is to keep starting, even if it is initially in Memphis. I will stop now because I am being repetitive.
If the team really wants Woodford to start the season in Memphis fine; but, the least they can do is go ahead and pay the man.
That might go a long way with him…
No team would start a precedent of paying minor leaguers full Major League salaries. What about service time, etc.? That would head them down a very slippery slope.
I can’t speak for Jake, or others but I bet it’s about more than money.
For now, 1.
Most players in his case want the service time to eliminate any option they have; as once the 3rd option is gone they have to either go left or right with a player. And for Woodford either way is fine, as many teams would love to have him.One thing that seems pretty obvious is the Cards’ management of rotation and pen pieces as been pretty bad the last few years. I think BW is right, we will see that continue this year.
And there’s no guarantee that a modest late July upgrade can be worked out every season.
I guess I’m missing something Euro as it’s not obvious to me! I think they did a great job of managing their rotation and bullpen in 2022 outside of hanging onto TJ McFarland for a month too long. Ollie made a lot of very sensible good moves throughout the season and the front office helped with rotating pieces in and out that were helpful at the right times. Calling up Pallante was a great decision. Getting Packy Naughton for nothing turned into a very good decision. Using Zack Thompson like they did couldn’t have worked out better. Managing Helsley’s and Gino’s innings throughout the season was well executed. And trading for Quintana and far more surprisingly Jordan Montgomery really gave the team a lift. That’s a lot of positives. So where is it obvious that they were bad? They weren’t great in 2021, but I think they did very well last year.
So where is it obvious that they were bad?
Jnevel, the management of the rotation was bad in the context their strategic planning lacked sufficient risk management and put them behind the eight ball right out of the gate in 2022. Every piece of the rotation had recent and significant health/injury concerns going in.
One move to mitigate this was to sign Matz, a true workhorse. If you’re going to spend millions to bolster an injury plagued staff, sign a guy who isn’t injury prone. Or if you do, pony up more to a higher target since we had/have no number one caliber guy. The higher performance potential would help balance the risk/reward scale.
Another mitigation strategy was to use Jordan Hicks as a starter. Sorry, but that was a really bad idea. It was destined for frustration from the start. Not only had Hicks already shown he has durability issues, but he’s also never been able to reliably handle one inning efficiently from the pen. How’s he going to go 5 or 6? After 8 starts with 4 losses and 4 no-decisions, where he averaged over 7 walks per 9 innings, they finally figured out Hicks is no starter. The Cards went with a 4-man rotation the first couple weeks before they finally included Hicks in the rotation. I know about days off early, but if Wainwright had been paced better with fewer innings early, then maybe he wouldn’t have cratered when they needed him the most late in the year. Speaking of Wainwright, that whole deal was handled very poorly. Who were they trying to trick with some of the talk coming from Marmol and others? They ended up looking foolish.
As for the pen, you mentioned McFarland. I’ll add VerHagen. His WHIP and ERA were worse than McFarland’s and it seemed to me he was used in more high leverage situations. June was awful and the Cards seemed willing to keep rolling with him after it was obvious something was lacking. The injury in July put an end to it. We don’t need to go into the Woodford details again, but he was a possible/probable answer to a couple of the questions the Cards couldn’t get right. And the Cards aren’t too cheap with their money since they spent millions on a couple of failed answers when they likely had a virtually free solution in house to help more. Even if I weren’t a big believer in Woodford like the Cards’ decision makers aren’t, curiosity would’ve gotten the best of me to give him more reps given the lack of reliable options at times during the year (pick pen or rotation). His 2021 should have earned him more regard than was given.
As you noted, the Cards did some good things (Q, Monty, Pallante). Those were necessary because of the problems that had boiled over to begin with. It was a case of next man up and trade deadline deals. I gave credit to Mo for pulling those strings to save the playoff chances. However, I’d give a much better grade if all of that was done to propel the Cards from a sure-bound playoff team to serious World Series contender. Instead, they were reactionary moves needed to clean up the mess that nearly had the Cards on the outside looking in for their one-game playoff experience.
Euro, I agree that last year they didn’t have the depth to cover the injuries to Flaherty, Matz, and VerHagen (if we want to count him). They certainly do have that this year. If that’s the criticism, then that’s fair. But I still think given what they had, they did a fantastic job of working within those confines. Hindsight is always 20/20. It was hard to know that both Matz and Flaherty would miss almost the entire season. And they just didn’t have the depth to cover that.
I also 100% agree with the Hicks as a starter thing. I had forgotten about that but yeah, that never really made sense to me either.
I have mixed feelings on Woodford. He is definitely advancing as they keep playing with his pitch mix to make him more effective. But his ceiling is probably average pitcher (which would be a great outcome if we can get it). I agree that he was certainly an option they could have tried more. But I really feel uneasy about guessing that his results would have been much better than Hicks or Liberatore. But like I said, they’ve been playing with his pitch mix, and now I think there is some potential to get decent results a couple times through an order – so maybe 5 inning starts, which would be better than what we would have likely gotten from him last year. I really hope he can be our #6 starter (or 7 if Hudson does well too) because I think we’re going to really need at least 7.
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