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MLB has reinstated Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson.
Perhaps this paves the way for their Hall of Fame chances.
r/Esteemed Rat
Just saw this. MLB keeps chipping away at what was once a thick concrete wall between the game’s integrity and wagering on the games.
Shoeless Joe Jackson also reinstated. I assume Eddie Cicotte is also now eligible. Both Jackson and Cicotte would have likely been enshrined by now had they not been part of the 1919 World Series plot.
Thanks for posting, Rat. Glad to hear it. Too bad Rose was so stubborn about the gambling thing he did. Given that, I don’t think it would have been good look for MLB for Rose to be admitted to the HOF. However, I don’t doubt that he will be admitted posthumously, and I’ll be thrilled when it happens. In my mind Rose and Bench were two of the best baseball players of all time.
Shoeless Joe Jackson is another matter. He got banned because of his association with the 1919 Black Sox scandal where Chicago deliberately threw the 1919 World series for today’s equivalent of $91,000 each (according to Wikipedia). However, Shoeless Joe ‘had led both teams in several statistical categories and set a World Series record with 12 base hits’ which suggests that he did not participate in the scandal. But, then, ‘It was alleged that Jackson admitted to participating in the fix during grand jury testimony on September 28, 1920.'(Wikipedia) Admission of participation in the conspiracy pretty much ends the argument in my mind.
I’ve suspected for a long time that this would be the course baseball would take to arrive at a somewhat objective or even-handed conclusion to the Rose question. My view is that the reasons are three fold. By allowing the possibility of Pete’s posthumous election to the HOF it quiets the voices of those who justifiably argue that without the possibility of the all time hits leader as a member of the club, the baseball HOF could be seen as short on credibility. It also sends the message that his punishment was sufficiently severe in the sense that he’s no longer of this world to savor the experience of being elected or to appreciate the prestige of being a member. And finally, it theoretically creates a genuinely strong deterrent for others concerning the notion that, although their career accomplishments may be well worthy of induction, there’s a very good possibility of never being elected until after they’ve packed their bags and been called home. In any case, MLB takes the easy way out on this one and avoids having to take a firm stand either way.
Very glad to see “Shoeless” Joe, “Fast” Eddie Cicotte and “Pistol” Pete, reinstated. Cooperstown is now a done deal.
I’ve come to believe that hypocrisy is either a term that’s been removed from the English language or is entirely imaginary when the dollar amount reaches a specific stratum…
Is everyone convinced he’ll be elected? What about Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc? At any rate, Manny Motter never bet on baseball and he certainly never amped up on PED’s…
Should have been banned.
Should have been reinstated before he died.
Hope voters keep both playing AND managerial in mind when they vote.
If you are to believe what was presented in the movie Eight Men Out – Jackson didn’t participate in fixing the 1919 WS but this far after all original sources have passed.
Rose is another story. We know he bet ON the Refs as their manager. There is no proof he bet on baseball at all as a player but – he probably did.
Having said that – Charlie Hustle also probably never bet against his own team, probably.
If I had a vote I’d put him in on my second ballot.
He should have never bet on major league baseball at all but – I still think he deserves to be in the HoF anyway; especially posthumously.
I feel better about letting Rose into the Hall than the PED folks only because betting isn’t likely to affect your performance in any positive way (unless your opponent is betting too and throwing a game intentionally). My assumption is Rose earned all those hits and certainly earned the longevity. I am 100% ok with banning him while he was living though. Same argument for Shoeless Joe. I’m also ok if the ban had stayed in place. No reason remotely condone betting on the sport you are playing or managing. With gambling now so pervasive in sports, the risk is elevated. Would anyone be surprised to learn that lots of players have a proxy who is placing bets for them?
I’ve always wondered how many baseball games were affected by the bets of the evil Pete Rose and precisely how he was able to manipulate the outcomes of those games to further enrich himself.
With gambling now so pervasive in sports, the risk is elevated. Would anyone be surprised to learn that lots of players have a proxy who is placing bets for them?
Yep. I think that MLB was standing on thin ice with the whole thing. Literally over half the broadcasts of MLB games are on networks owned by a gambling company. It’s gross, but what can be done? Gambling is so huge now and probably only will get bigger in the future.
MLB does what is best for them. How many seasons did Selig and the owners turn their heads about PEDS? It was good for business, until it wasn’t.
“Anyone mention hypocrisy?” — CIF
I feel better about letting Rose into the Hall than the PED folks only because betting isn’t likely to affect your performance in any positive way (unless your opponent is betting too and throwing a game intentionally). My assumption is Rose earned all those hits and certainly earned the longevity. I am 100% ok with banning him while he was living though. Same argument for Shoeless Joe. I’m also ok if the ban had stayed in place. No reason remotely condone betting on the sport you are playing or managing. With gambling now so pervasive in sports, the risk is elevated. Would anyone be surprised to learn that lots of players have a proxy who is placing bets for them?
Well stated jnevel. While gambling on baseball as a player or manager should never be tolerated at least we know that Pete’s accomplishments on the field were due to his own abilities, unlike the PED cheats.
Speaking of the PED cheats I am pretty sure that MLB knew what was going on in the late 90’s and turned a blind eye because all of the homers and slugging were selling tickets. This includes our own Big Mac.
The word is Big Mac only took Andro which was not a banned substance.
Is that true? Only the Shadow knows…
He still has to be voted in by the Era committee for which he would be eligible in 2028. I’m not sure he will make it. The voters have to want him in, and a part of the Hall criteria is the character clause. Rose fails that with gambling, but then also on the grounds it has been stated by his associates Rose would look for 12-14 year old girls to have sexual relations with.
The word is Big Mac only took Andro which was not a banned substance.
Is that true? Only the Shadow knows…
Big Mac confessed to using steroids.
While there is uncertainty as to how much Joe Jackson participated in throwing the 1919 World Series, per the book “Eight Men Out”, he did receive $5,000 for his part. When the negotiations started he demanded $20,000, but only got the five Gs, which was paid to him after the fourth game.
Cicotte got $10K, and Lefty Williams $5 grand.
Rose, from what I have heard, heavily gambled the rest of his life, with supposedly a lot of debt owed. I met him just last year at the National Sports Collectors Convention and he signed his 1966 Topps card for me. I asked him of all the positions he played, what was his favorite. He looked up at me and said simply, “First.”
And the only time McGwire didn’t flatly deny being amped up was when he was under oath during a congressional hearing when he used the old, “I not here to talk about the past,” trick. Then, several years later when the overwhelming evidence left him no choice but to come clean, he did so with a feeble, sobbing, teary eyed confession which I thought was disgraceful. I have way more respect for Bonds, Sosa, Clemens or just about any other player that was amped up during that era.
By many accounts, Pete also loved betting on the ponies and dogs. When I lived in Phoenix, I was into them myself in the early 90’s. Bill Frieder lived in off-track betting facilities, as I would often see him there…….and he was not a light bettor. Those things will gobble you up. And it’s not just the money, but the time you’d spend at the OTB’s or tracks. I just finally came to the conclusion that I would steer clear of them until I got older. Well older is here and I still haven’t revisited them.
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