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They might no be vocal but that’s not an excuse to see a clubhouse “overran” by young players and sit idly and not address it somehow. He saw what was happening and did nothing. Furthermore he told everyone now what he saw and chose to ignore because he is not “vocal”. sorry unacceptable. I can’t believe he said such an asinine thing. Just shut up dude.
With regard to veteran leadership, the elephant in the room is the manager, Oli Marmol.
I think MO has been, all along, using Oli to keep the seat warm for Yadier Molina. Whether Molina can have success as a manager is to be determined. But he does checks all the boxes….veteran, knows the game, lifelong Cardinal, intelligent, hard working, respected and admired…..and soon he will even have two – three years worth of firsthand experience as the manager of a baseball team to go with his 18 years as a player.
I think if Oli was fired quickly, Molina would not be considered ready. Despite him being considered a savior by some fans, I suspect the Cardinals are more guarded about that.
The Cardinals don’t see Molina as checking all the boxes yet. They want him to learn player evaluation and how the front office operates. This is what Mo said at WWU. My speculation is that they are worried that they could not control him. Remember that he learned the ropes under TLR. If/when Molina is hired as manager, there is no way they could fire him easily because of who he is. They know that and probably so does he.
In case you missed it, Molina is not yet in camp and it is unclear how much time he is willing to devote to the Cardinals right now. He didn’t want to join the staff officially. Apparently, he just wants to be in charge. So there seems to be some ground to cover between here and there….
That roster was the land of misfit toys in more ways than you could guess, held together (or not) by misfit coaches. Doesn’t give you a warm fuzzy going into this season when the stated purpose of one of your winter signings is to keep young fools in line.
Of course people are throwing darts at Arenado right now because he made the comments, but I’m not sure who should be most embarrassed by this. There are multiple candidates up and down the line. The Cardinal way/culture is turning into excuse-making. Hey, the guys at the top do it, so why not us?
Kind of a tough situation to be put in for Arenado, as if you say “no comment”, you are criticized for dodging the question, and if you honestly answer you are open to criticism for what you say.
His answer is honest. As Brian said, the two veteran stars on this team are more introverted. Years ago I was in Southern California visiting family. The Dodgers had given JD Drew a big free agent contract, and there was an article saying how management was disappointed that Drew was not taking on more of a leadership role. Sheesh, you would have thought you would know a guy’s personality before giving him a multi-year deal.
At any rate, I think the Cardinals have painted themselves into a corner having a lot of younger players, and a young manager. I think Shildt would have been able to handle that dynamic much better. Even Marmol does not seem like a real dynamic, outgoing personality. He is reluctant to confront the players, as evidenced last year when instead of calling O’Neill aside and talking to him, he mouthed off to the press.
The more I see of this team, and hear about things that go on in the background, the more it seems to indicate management made a big blunder in hiring Oliver Marmol as manager. When you have to bring in a former team member who is well past his prime due to lack of leadership, that is not a good reflection on your manager.
Counting on a 38 year old end of the bench piece certainly is a short term fix for the leadership problem, similar to how bringing in mid 30s starters on short term deals is a short term fix. I guess Mo sees a laundry list of leader hopefuls like the laundry list of starter hopefuls. The plan is to buy time for something to emerge from the murk.
If Carpenter is really the enforcer that he’s being built up to be then just let him retire and make him the bench coach.
Seems like a better plan than burning a roster spot – even the 26th one…
I don’t understand Arenado’s comments about the young guys taking over the clubhouse when you have Goldy, Arenado, Contreras, Wainwright, Mikolas, Matz, etc.
Didn’t they also have Wainwright last year? There were vets there. Nolan toughen up princess. Don’t let the young ones overrun you.
Not defending anyone, but I want to point out something that seems a point of confusion. A player is with the other players all the time, whether in the clubhouse, working out or on the road. Coaches are not ever-present. There is a big difference. Being there to address a problem right when it happens and without escalating to coaches/manager is very important.
On the other veterans point, Contreras was new and under fire for his own problems. He wasn’t in a position to guide others. Wainwright was just trying to hold his body together at get to his revered 200 wins. Matz was doing so poorly, he was taken out of the rotation. Mikolas was also struggling. No one was having a good year. Again, not defending. Just reminding folks of the environment.
There was a void of both leadership and performance in 2023. IMO, the two are related. Much easier to lead when the road is smooth.
It probably wouldn’t have happened under Baker, Boche, etc. But when you hire a manager who’s 5 years younger than any other manager in baseball, you’re opening yourself up to it.
To me it screams when is the last time any of you fantasy baseball players factored in leadership considerations when constructing your roster?
Part of being a good leader is not burying people and blaming people when things go badly. If any player or Oli for that matter brought adversarial language into the clubhouse while it was burning, he would be a negative force, not a leader. There was never a point I can remember when an under-performing old guy was going to save the team by claiming these damn kids are bringing too much energy.
Leaders kick people’s asses when they are too full of themselves, not when they struggle.Oli deserves his share of the criticism but he didn’t hire himself. It is 1000% obvious that management does not want a strong personality in the dugout because that person wouldn’t be as easy to control. Going with rookie managers cuts both ways. Yes the FO has all of the power but when things go sideways there is a leadership vacuum. Mangement made their bed.
As for Arenado he needs to cut out the snowflake routine and man up. I was skeptical of that trade from the get go. He was whiny in Colorado, we already had Gorman drafted to be the longterm 3B, and we could have used that $35M per year on an ace pitcher.
If they were genuinely seeking strong leadership that could possibly impact the fortunes of this team, Carpenter’s given name would be Chris.
Whenever there is a leadership issue, the normal thought is that it begins at the top. As Nate said, “where is the manager?”
Taking a 30,000 feet view, it looks like this club is in disarray. Marmol was hired before 2022 and the club had a good year, with Pujols, Molina, Wainwright and Maddux all around. Now they did get better years than 2023 from some key players like Goldschmidt, Arenado, Edman, and of course Albert.
But take away many of those guys and have a season where most guys were worse in ‘23, and then you have various upper management personnel point fingers at certain players – it just seems that the leadership is poor.
My sense is this club is a mess and will under-perform as long as Marmol is “leading”. He just does not have the legacy nor personality to head a big league club – never played the game at the top level, never managed, doesn’t inspire people ala other good managers who were not players like Earl Weaver or Joe McCarthy.
Just not a good fit. I think we will see Descalso replace Marmol sometime during the season, and the club will respond and play much better under Daniel. He will then be given the reigns for 2025. Our fourth straight rookie manager, but a guy that played under LaRussa and who will bring some balance to the role, and not be quite as much of a puppet of upper management as Ollie.
This clubhouse ‘rot’ is a big part of what got Matheny fired as manager in 2018, almost six years ago! The fact that Mo has let this fester all this time is disturbing. Nobody cares about this sort of thing when you’re winning, but when you are losing……..
Descalso has that manager pedigree you see quite often – scrappy middle infielder who learned the game by outsmarting and out-hustling guys with more ability. Played for a Hall of Fame manager.
He’s sort of in the Dick Howser, Craig Counsell, Robby Thomson mold.
But who knows – until they take over a club you just do not know if they can handle the egos and strategies involved in running a ball club on the field.
Yes the FO has all of the power but when things go sideways there is a leadership vacuum. Mangement made their bed.
Yep, don’t sell the front office short here. Their culpability goes beyond poor roster construction. There has to be some strong glue holding it all together, and with the existing staff, they are a fragile unit where a small ember can begin flaming out of control quickly.
Might need to get the data analysts to increase the weight on the leadership factor before running the next 1,000 simulations. Then down the road, maybe hire key positions like it matters. And I’m talking about guys with job descriptions where leadership should be a core competency.
With a FO that is willing to throw anyone under the bus (Willson), keeping your mouth shut is a good approach by the players.
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