September 20, 2019 at 10:36 am #107153
Nobody has started a thread on him yet so I thought I would fire away.
As I see it there are two issues with Carlos Martinez. They are as follows:
1) He’s never lived up to his expectations. You can argue about how he’s worth his contract in today’s game all you want. The bottom line is that he has never become the Ace that we expected him to become 4-5 years ago.
2) All that goofy stuff of his just makes performances like last night worse. If he was a tough, hard-nosed, all business type of player you could handle outings like last night a little better. But cup stacking, hair coloring, and other things he does don’t look good when you fail. And as one poster said on last night’s game thread, its almost a heart attack situation half the time he takes the mound.
Bottom line – back to starting or trade him.
Fire away posters.
r/Esteemed RatSeptember 20, 2019 at 10:59 am #107159September 20, 2019 at 11:02 am #107161
That thread is from back in January. I thought since we are nearing the end of the 2019 season it might be time to re-hash our thoughts on Martinez. Particularly after his performance last night and some comments made about him.
Feel free to combine into one thread though.September 20, 2019 at 11:11 am #107166
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Currently it seems like he is only marginally suited for his role as closer. He seemed much better as the 8th inning guy when Hicks had the 9th. I’m hesitant to move Gallegos there but maybe Brebbia deserves a stint? He was good there when he got the shot before, or so it seems.
Going forward, Carlos is a relatively cheap #2/3 guy at worst, if healthy. Why trade away that? For all the gushing about the rotation this year, Carlos’ career ERA lines up nicely with all of them:
If you can get a great value for him, then I guess try to trade but you don’t just trade low for a trade’s sake. I notice that guys like Wacha, Waino, and Flaherty aren’t mentioned for their “goofy” antics as one of the reasons they need to go. But then again, they must be the “tough, hard nosed, all business” types.September 20, 2019 at 11:38 am #107172
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Like Forrest Gump’s mother said in Winston Groom’s novel: “Life is like a box of chocolates – you never know what you’re going to get.”
That fits Carlos Martinez perfectly. If you can live with constant uncertainty and anxiety of never knowing which Cmart will turn up on any given day, keep him around. If you can’t, use him to acquire a little more offense for this offensively challenged team and let some other outfit deal with the anxiety. Whatever the case, he wouldn’t be my closer if I had any voice in the matter.September 20, 2019 at 11:50 am #107176
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I think CMart still has some value as a starter if he can maintain his health. He is moderately priced for a guy who could give us 175-200 innings.
I do not like him as a closer though because as a closer you have to have a clean inning. As a starter you can give up a run here or there but not as a closer.
If his trade value is good enough I would consider a trade but there is no need to give him away.September 20, 2019 at 1:04 pm #107190
That fits Carlos Martinez perfectly. If you can live with constant uncertainty and anxiety of never knowing which Cmart will turn up on any given day, keep him around. If you can’t, use him to acquire a little more offense for this offensively challenged team and let some other outfit deal with the anxiety. Whatever the case, he wouldn’t be my closer if I had any voice in the matter.
I agree CIF.
But with a starter the uncertainty is only there once every five days. With a reliever/closer the anxiety could be there 3-4 times a week.
Like gscottar says, a starter can have a bad inning and survive. A closer has a bad inning and that’s all she wrote, game over, we lost. And a closer has a chance 3-4 times a week. A starter, once every five days.
r/Esteemed RatSeptember 20, 2019 at 7:44 pm #107441
Martinez leads the NL in saves since the break (18) and until last night, had 11 straight scoreless appearances. In the last two months, he has one loss and one blown save (in the same game, 8/7 at LAD).September 20, 2019 at 9:05 pm #107449
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I think Martinez offers the franchise a great deal of value. As such, I would be wary of trading him unless provided with overwhelming value in return. There will be spots to fill in the 2020 pitching staff in which he is suited – rotation or closing roll. Additionally, this season proved the need to have pitching depth to survive and compete thru the long regular season.
Carlos has proven to be a quality starter when healthy. The focus of his offseason should be to address the arm issues that plagued him earlier this year. Additionally, the recent health issues are concerning to me. These issues need to be cleared up as well. Saying this, I would love to see him come into spring training capable of competing for a job in the rotation. If not, he could fill the closer role for me.
Brian, thanks for putting things into perspective. Thursday night was painful to watch. You are correct that this performance was an aberration in what has been a strong second half for Carlos.September 21, 2019 at 6:54 am #107504
With Hicks almost certainly not going to be ready to start next season, the Cardinals will have an interesting off-season decision. Do they keep Martinez as closer for what may be the entire first half (or longer?) or do they move him into the rotation and make someone else the ninth-inning man? If the latter, do they sign someone or try the in-house options?
Discussing how Martinez will be used in 2020 is a far more realistic scenario than pining for him to be traded away.September 21, 2019 at 7:35 am #107508
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I feel like the rotation would demand more of him than the pen, so it would be prudent to start there. If somehow his arm just won’t hold up, then I can live with him as a late inning reliever. If not Carlos, then I’d go with Brebbia in the 9th and let your setup guys be Carlos, Gallegos, Miller. The rest of the pen gets filled with some combo of Gant, Ponce, Webb, Leone, Fernandez, Helsley, Whitley, or a FA signing. I would like to see another lefty in the mix. Hey, Cecil is still on contract…ha ha.September 21, 2019 at 7:37 am #107509
Brian cites good stats but figures can lie and we all know how Carlos has actually looked when he comes into a game. Which Carlos will you get or will his baby daddy Yadi have to go out and slap some sense into him (that seems to work). Personally I hate to see the magnificent efforts like those of Jack Flaherty wasted by a closer who walks a leadoff – somebody do a stat check on that- and then sees that walk score to affect the score of the game.
I am in favor of trading Carlos because I don’t see him ever being a starter again. He is just too inconsistent and has a weak shoulder. I thought that was why they put him in the pen – to lighten his load.
Anyway, good discussion and I agree with CIF on the box of chocolates remark.September 21, 2019 at 8:05 am #107513
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I feel that the future of Martinez with the Cards is intertwined with the return of Hicks and Reyes. The FO may have made a decision on that already.September 21, 2019 at 8:14 am #107517
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I feel totally confident that between Gallegos, Brebbia, Helsley, Gant, Miller, Elledge, Fernandez, Reyes and Whitley that they can find a closer. It may take a month or even two to find the right guy but he is in there!September 21, 2019 at 9:03 am #107522
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I think Martinez should be moved back to starter, and have a closer by committee the first half next year.September 21, 2019 at 10:12 am #107525
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Carlos Martinez was one of the top 10-15 starting pitchers in baseball when he was healthy. I hope he can return to that role in 2020.
This year he has “closed” the gaping hole at the end of the bullpen. The guy seems to do whatever he is called upon to accomplish, yet does not get a lot of credit.
As for his antics and style, none of that bothers me. Some guys are just that way, but then there are people who do not condone those things. The Cardinals have two team Hall of Fame members who may have been bigger cut-ups than anyone, Dizzy Dean and Pepper Martin. That is why when asked about how the Cardinals would fare in the American League, Leo Durocher said something to the effect of “They would not allow us in that league – they would say we were a bunch of gas-housers”. The nickname stuck of course.
Then you had Bob Uecker catching fly balls in a tuba, before a World Series game no less. Straight-laced GM Bob Howsam could not stand Uecker and his goofy stuff, and later sent him packing in the Bill White trade.
Carlos Martinez is a valuable member of this team. His value will be even better as a starter, but he has to be in the mix somewhere if healthy.September 21, 2019 at 11:04 am #107528
I simply do not understand the folks who are calling for CMart to return to starting. He was a starter 7 years ago and not too bad then but he has pretty much gone downhill since then especially with his medical condition. We have been told that he has a weak wing and needs to be limited to bullpen duty. My opinion is that he has seen his last days as a starter unless they try to stretch him out in Spring Training. We have enough young bucks to do our SP duties (and one old buck – Waino) so why block their progression with fitting square peg in a round hole.
I hope Bader is held out of today’s game and used for late defense if needed. He has truly reverted to a lookalike of his old self. One day he hits two dingers and we think the problem is solved. That seems to apply to several other team members also. We have a great defensive team but sometime they have to make themselves look like an offensive team too.
How many were hurting yesterday when Yadi crumbled after catching one in the junque? One tough hombre.September 21, 2019 at 11:47 am #107532
Can someone explain to me exactly what is going on with Martinez’s shoulder? What do the medical experts say? Whats his prognosis? Need to get all the facts in here.
And I’m sorry, but I truly believe when healthy that if Carlos Martinez had more of a Bob Gibson type attitude and approach instead of being a goof that he would be one tough hombre.
r/Esteemed RatSeptember 21, 2019 at 6:04 pm #107738
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I too would need to know more about Martinez’ physical situation as to why he could not be a starter. Seems like the main difference in being a closer and a starter is endurance, and you need a healthy arm no matter which role you are in.
As a starter you pitch more innings, so I can see the “weak arm” thought from that standpoint. But as a bullpen guy you warm up a lot, and pitch 3-4 times per week, sometimes more. So it is not like you can hide a weak wing in the bullpen. But maybe there is something to it.
I felt coming in to the season Wainwright should be in the ‘pen, mainly because I felt he would not be able to go more than 4-5 innings per start. But he seems to be getting stronger as the season progresses.September 21, 2019 at 8:36 pm #107765
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Best case scenario is that CMart is in the rotation next year and we trade for Brad Hand in the off-season, assuming Hand is healthy.
Probably won’t happen but I would like to see a bullpen acquisition since Hicks probably won’t be ready until mid season and we don’t know if Hicks will be back to his old self when he does come back.September 21, 2019 at 10:57 pm #107772
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What if Wainwright decides to retire, and go out on top? Re-sign Wacha?September 21, 2019 at 11:00 pm #107774
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Sorry. My Wacha post above should be on the other thread.September 22, 2019 at 7:13 am #107790
CMart has to be traded. Why “has” to? Because his value is still very high overall, but could be a negative a year from now or at the deadline. Secondly, a change of scenery might be good for him and a team might be able to be sold on that.
The BP will be fine without him. Between Gallegos, Brebbia, Miller, Gant, Helsley, Junior F, Hicks in 2021, Whitley coming, Cabrera, etc. can either be a great fresh arm matchup committee or one taking charge of the role(Gallegos). It makes zero sense to have a $12M closer who gives out multiple heart attacks 9 out of 10 times he stumbles out there.
The shoulder history along with complete lack of work ethic, when combined give him a small chance to ever become the starter he could have been.
The Padres are and have been looking for a potential top starter to go with their up and comers.
Cards Get: Kirby Yates and his .888 WHIP for one year which will let Hicks get back and/or the young guys gain more experience. Luis Patino, 20 y/O RHSP (31 on MLB, 27 Fangraphs) and Adrian Morejon 21 y/o LHP (no longer top 100 on either list.
Cardinals give up CMart, Ponce and Arozarena.
Patino would become the top 1, 2 or 3 prospect in the system and Morejon would be 4th.
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