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BW has hit the nail on the head! The lack of spending has become a major issue! To survive and compete spending what we do you have to have brilliant FO people and we don’t! We either need new ownership who are willing to spend big bucks or new FO people from TB for instance who know how to make it happen with small payrolls! Since we will get neither we are stuck in last place!
If management finished 4th in division and draws 2.7 I think behind closed doors they will pat themselves on the back for another successful season! So sad!
They do what they do. By comments here you see a majority of posters are fine with their philosophy. Apparently all we needed are inning eaters in the rotation. Now we have three. I will never understand the Lynn signing. Didn’t they watch him pitch last year?
This is not their first rodeo on smoke and mirrors budgeting. How many time do we need to be reminded? Pay attention to what they do, NOT what they SAY.
Yep all the talk ended up in nothing really. Outside of gray, we did nothing worth mentioning. I didnt go to any games last season when I felt they did nothing to get better and I won’t be going to any this season even if they pull an amazing mets thing. I think this ownership and all the rest needs to go.
Payroll discussions are tricky because there are so many variables and definitions.
26 man payroll?
40 man payroll?
CBT payroll?Currently the Cardinals 26 man payroll is $165M.
The 40 man payroll is $173M.
The CBT payroll is $205M.So when Mo says that the 2024 payroll will be x amount it is helpful to know which one he is talking about. Of course he probably hasn’t defined it because by not doing so gives him an escape hatch.
It’s disappointing that they won’t add another arm for the pen unless it’s bargain basement and are unwilling to give out a multi year deal.
I get that the Bally’s income is a concern and it’s a business but they can squeeze out a bit more here and they seem unwilling to go past even last years starting payroll. Which is just down right a let down.
Player development should be able to supply something besides 6th inning guys and mop ups, Memphis shuttle guys who can’t stick, guys who come in in the 4th inning when a starter gets blown out, ‘swing men’ who are particularly good at nothing. Helsley was drafted in 2015, where are the pitchers drafted since then?
Why should Bill get credit for a 176mil opening day budget in 2023, after last seasons purge of FA’s-to-be at the deadline?
gscottar
So when Mo says that the 2024 payroll will be x amount it is helpful to know which one he is talking about.
Exactly my point. He talks about it in whichever way makes him seem like he spent money.
“Payroll went up this year” – He’s now referring to CBT. Next year, when we have a higher 26-man payroll, but a lower CBT, he’ll be referring to the 26-man roster.
When you have the worst season in 30 years, do you lower your revenue projection for the following season, and adjust expenses accordingly?
I think that is pretty much it, bccran. If you manage your business expecting profit every year, there are almost no other levers to pull than to cut expense in a down revenue period. But you might have to be willing to take a loss now and then to keep the long term prospects up. Otherwise you risk getting caught in a downward revenue-downward expense spiral that becomes very difficult to escape. That cash cow has delivered a lot of milk and cream over the years…
Is it a linear relationship between spending money and success? If so, why aren’t the Mets, Yankees Dodgers, Braves, Padres, etc. in the WS every year? It’s not how much you spend, it’s how you spend it. The Cardinals IMHO have an exciting future right now with Walker, Gorman, Winn, Nootbaar, etc. They need some of the highly drafted pitchers to develop well. There are 15 talented young starter prospects that I count in the system.
Of course it is not linear. But the multi-year trends cannot be ignored. In relation to their competition, the team has been spending less and has been less competitive in recent years. If the right investments aren’t being made in the future, all the hope in the world won’t change the course.
P.S. As we’ve discussed a lot, the Cards are in a period of transition. Becoming a true title contender again seems a long way away right now.
I would respond that it depends on how our young players like Walker, Gorman, Winn, Nootbaar, Saggese, Scott, etc. mature. Coupled with how some of our young pitchers develop. There’s a lot of talent in the Liberatore, Thompson, Graceffo, McGreevey, Hjerpe, Hansen, Roby, Robberse, Rom,
Kloffenstein, Rajcic, etc. group.
We need to have a few develop into solid major league starters. If most of that happens, which I think it will, we’d have some significant dollars to fill in as needed.The way the Sonny Gray contract is structured is very telling. It is extremely backloaded for a reason, most likely the uncertainty with Bally’s and season ticket renewals. Does anyone think it is going to be a good idea to pay Gray $35M in 2026 when he is 36 years old? Nope.
It is good to have hope for the future, and I see why you do, bccran. On the other hand, most of the names you mentioned are not probably going to be a factor in 2024. We’ll have a lot better feeling about how this transition is going by the end of the season.
They really should not have any uncertainty with fan attendance they have drawn over 3 million fans every year since 2004 except the Covid years where limits were in place. If they are worried about season tickets it’s should be because there is little excitement with the team….the product they put on the field last year was not good and the pitching staff was beyond terrible and they were pretty much out of contention after the first couple of weeks in May yet they still drew over 3.2 million fans
There is still uncertainty, but maybe different than considered. We should realize that every ticket is not the same. They’ve had to discount and offer extensive promotions, more so than before it seems. So, even if the total number sold remains high, the resulting revenue and profit is likely less than planned. Also, those with purchased tickets but who don’t attend don’t spend money on concessions. How often do we hear the ticket count for a game and see half that number of people actually in the stands? Impossible to tell the magnitude of the impact as numbers are not reported.
Time value of money, gscottar.
Ok…lol
He is going to make $10M at age 34 then $35M at age 36. That is pretty drastic.
gscottar –
If you want to pay him in discounted dollars because of inflationary factors, it behooves you to pay him as much as possible toward the tail end of the contract. Basic finance.GS, How Gray and Stl agree to payment, is of no concern to me. Neither is the 26man opening day, or any other accounting timeline involving deferrals or partial season totals.
Whether we are buyers or sellers changes the opening day payroll amounts in different directions. “Opening day 26man” is article fodder.
Everything else is just shuffling the $ around to justify the salaries position they are dealing with currently, and I’m done with following it. It’s misleading.
We are at 205mil on the CBT-40man, the number clubs pay overage taxes on. First time we’ve broke 200mil, but what will the total be for the season?
We are currently 25mil under paying taxes, and Grays AAV of 25mil fits just as well as Goldys 26mil.
Derrick Goold just wrote that he currently projects the Cards at $170MM for the 26-man roster and believes they have room to add another reliever. Note that is different saying from they WILL add one.
Goold repeated the previous assertions from BDWIII and Mo that the 40-man payroll will increase over 2023, without commenting whether or not his projections agree with that.
How do these two statements jibe with what our payroll watchers here are thinking?
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