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My gut feeling is they are going to go with Winn as the starter no matter what. I kind of feel like whatever UTs and backups we end up with will be whatever we’ve got now. less whatever is traded, plus whatever comes as secondary players in other trades. Maybe pick up a stray looking for a job if its an upgrde. If they do start out with Edman at SS, I think Winn a phone call away will be seen as enough.
If batting 6,7 & 8 is close to Donovan, Walker, Edman; I can see carrying Winn at 9.
But, if BillyMo makes multiple trades from the lineup, and the back half becomes weaker, Winn likely just adds to that.Unless Winn comes out of Spring Training showing significant improvement, I can’t see him making the opening day roster.
Right now, it looks like he needs to spend the first half of next season at Memphis.
With both DeJong and Manny Motter now available, Johnny has two safeguard options if Winn doesn’t pan out next spring…Johnny has this thing under control.
1TD – you did make me laugh.
At the same time, I do fully expect them to bring PDJ into spring training on a minor league deal.
Haha!…DeJong will be the everday SS by the middle of May and the great Manny Motter will be situated at both 3B and 2B every time Nado and Gorman’s back acts up and they need some time off for a new grease fitting…Let’s face it, Johnny knows that Manny Motter sells tickets and keeps the turnstiles clicking!
Yep bling, Mo is a modern-day exec. A lot of swing and miss stuff in his repertoire. Did you notice the spin rate on his Motter DFAs this year?
Saturday, Woodford struggled with command, although I questioned several of umpire Buckleys calls and no calls..oh well. At least Jake only allowed 1 run and kept the Cards in the game, unlike Rom on Sun.!
Woody has two outings since back from the IL:
6.1 IP, 1 R, 4 BB, 4 K’s. = 1.42 era
Roms last two games:
6.2 IP, 11 R, 3 BB, 7 K’s. = 14.85 era
Zero reason, Rom would be in the rotation instead of Woodford. granted Woodford is there now, but I see many articles that include Rom for 2024 and not Woodford..??
Rom simply is not ready for MLB, and needs more AAA time.Lee my thinking is Mo and the gang are going through the swing and miss fetish phase. After 100 years they discovered how pitchers need to pitch. Who knew? They are geniuses. Rom has a track record of Ks while Woodford doesn’t. Case closed.
For those firm on wanting Winn to start 2024 in the minors, Edman is the SS for 2024, and he’s nearly untradable this winter.
Trading Edman would then force a glove first, weak bat, vet SS acquisition for 5mil when you’ve got the same skillset in Winn at AAA, for near minimum.
Trade Edman+ for pitching, and upgrade SS significantly, with Winn in AAA? Is straying from the primary offseason goal with the budget.
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As much as I like Edman at SS, and on the infield, I like us better with Edman in CF.This outfield carousel of bench bats with weak D starting at the corners needs to slow down. Edman correctly forces starters to the corners.
Offensively and defensively, it could be viewed as Winn starting at SS vs Burleson, O’Neill, Yepez or Carlson on the corner OF. The players most here prefer to trade.
I don’t profess to have a deep knowledge of advanced defensive metrics but Winn certainly does pass the eye test. I have seen him make a few plays that haven’t been made by a Cardinal SS since Ozzie Smith. Of course he will need to prove he can make the routine play day after day. And he will need to prove he can at least have a minimally acceptable bat, whatever that is.
Basically we need more time to see what Winn can do but I would certainly be open to the idea of him being the starting SS on opening day. Edman is always there if needed, and as was mentioned earlier, don’t be shocked if Paulie is brought back on a minor league deal.
Besides we have much bigger things to worry about than SS. Mo had better eat, drink, and sleep nothing but pitching upgrades for the next several weeks and months before he worries about SS.
For those firm on wanting Winn to start 2024 in the minors, Edman is the SS for 2024, and he’s nearly untradable this winter.
Agreed. He would be my opening day SS.
As much as I like Edman at SS, and on the infield, I like us better with Edman in CF.
This outfield carousel of bench bats with weak D starting at the corners needs to slow down. Edman correctly forces starters to the corners.
Here, I have to disagree. None of our starting center fielders were weak defensively.
By Statcast Outs Above Average:
Edman: 5 OAA with 92% Success Rate versus 88% Estimated Success Rate
Carlson: 3 OAA with 90% Success Rate versus 87% Estimated Success Rate
Nootbaar: 1 OAA with 90% Success Rate versus 89% Estimated Success RateThere is a 2% difference in Success Rate between them.
Now, Let’s look at UZR/150:
Nootbaar: 6.3
Edman: 3.6
Carlson: 2.1Offensively and defensively, it could be viewed as Winn starting at SS vs Burleson, O’Neill, Yepez or Carlson on the corner OF.
Burleson & Yepez should never be in the outfield.
Offensively and defensively, right now, the Cardinals are stronger with Edman at SS and O’Neill/Carlson in the OF.
LACF, are you saying you think O’Neill and Carlson will be on the 2024 team? Defense is important, but I assert that a championship team also needs more offense from the corners than these two can give them, not to mention guys who can stay healthy.
DeJong will once again “work on his swing” over the winter and will return with the full confidence of the illustrious Cardinal brass, but that’s nothing in comparison to the much anticipated homecoming of the great and irreplaceable Manny Motter!…Johnny and the rest of the gang will have these two legendary players ready to lead the Redbirds to the promised land in ’24…”Go, O’s!”
Hi Brian,
I agree with you, I think the Cardinals need to upgrade the outfield from O’Neill and Carlson. So, no, I don’t think they will be on the team next year. And I agree, they are of no value if they are on the IL all year.
If it were up to me, I would be trading them for relievers to upgrade our bullpen, which I will throw some ideas out there once the season has ended.
I was merely using data to show that given the players we have in the organization currently, we would be better off with Edman as SS and outfielders playing the outfield.
I’m with JJ on this one. The Cards will want Winn to be on the MLB team and play every day. And, Edman is easily the best CFer. Plus, he compensates some for having Walker in RF. I think this is the most likely scenario that solves a lot of issues. Winn will hit better with time. I have no doubt. But we will likely suffer a year with him as our #9 hitter and a .650 OPS.
I’d be ok with Carlson as the starting CF and Edman as the starting SS as well. But we need to trade someone with value to get pitching and I don’t like trading Winn so I think Carlson needs to be the centerpiece in a trade. But if the team wants to sign 2 really good starting pitchers for cash – Nola and Imanaga for instance (plus sign/trade for some other #4 starter) and play Carlson in CF and Edman at SS and Winn in Memphis, that’s ok too. It’s not my money.
Unless Walker radically improves defensively during the offseason, he should not be in the outfield next year, either.
Make him a DH.
Edman is easily the best CFer.
Edman is easily the best SS.
Whether Edman or Nootbaar is the best CF depends on which metric you look at.
And if the goal is to compete for a championship next year, then I would argue the Cardinals should trade Walker, Winn, Burleson & Hence to the Royals for Bobby Witt, Jr.
That would give the Cardinals an infield of Goldschmidt, Gorman, Witt & Arrenado with Edman & Donovan as utility players.
If anybody asks me, which they rarely do, I would have Edman at ss (except for a powerful arm Winn has not yet shown himself to be ready for prime time, though he probably will be one day), O’Neill has had his chance, and though I like him he just can’t stay healthy, Carlson has never lived up to expectations so we are probably going to have to look elsewhere for a couple of run-producers to keep the Nooter company in the outfield, depending what they want to do with Walker and his right field confusions. There are a number of interesting youngsters that are worth keeping around, as well as some who need a bus ticket out of town. But we’ve got to have at least one more solid new rbi man for the corner.
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