2020 Cardinals Game #5 – Wed 7/29 at Twins

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  • #134069
    CardsRedSox4EverCardsRedSox4Ever
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    Well, we can’t beat the Twins, that’s now settled. Maybe better luck vs the Brewers on Friday. Would like to see Shildt lean towards performance and not player development in this short season. No time for Bader to figure out how to hit a ball, need to put someone in his place who can actually make contact, one hit in 11 at bats notwithstanding.

    #134070
    AvatarCardsFanInChiTown
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    On Shildt’s “good teams have good bullpens” comment…he is right and the Cards pitching as a whole is solid throughout. For a BP to help a .500 or better team, said team need to score runs too….

    #134076
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    #134078
    Avatarbccran
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    One positive note is that Tyler O’Neill has only struck out once in 17 plate appearances. Only walked once too, but that lower K rate is nice too see.

    #134079
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    How’s that Cardinal outfield doing so far this season, 25?

    Still far too early to make definitive statements, but O’Neill has been solid, Fowler adequate and Bader awful.

    #134080
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    One positive note is that Tyler O’Neill has only struck out once in 17 plate appearances. Only walked once too, but that lower K rate is nice too see.

    Also of note, an .083 BABIP. Of course it’s a small sample size, but that will change. If he can keep the Ks lowish (25% or under) then he will be an excellent hitter for this team.

    #134082
    Avatarbccran
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    It would be great if O’Neill and Carlson play up to their ceilings. That would fix 2/3 of the problem.

    #134084
    Avatarbccran
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    Have to disagree with you on Fowler being adequate, 25.
    He had some success as a center fielder in his career, but by no stretch of the imagination is he an adequate right fielder on a top contending team. His best days are behind him, and at a different position. JMHO.

    #134087
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Have to disagree with you on Fowler being adequate, 25.
    He had some success as a center fielder in his career, but by no stretch of the imagination is he an adequate right fielder on a top contending team. His best days are behind him, and at a different position. JMHO.

    I meant strictly in terms of his early season performance. I agree that ideally, he’s no longer a starter. I think he’s about what we’ve seen the last two years (2019 and early 2020)…right around average with the bat, below average with the glove, won’t embarrass you if you have to play him for a few weeks due to injury at any of the OF positions. That sort of player you sign for a year at $5M kind of thing. Unfortunately, we are stuck with him at a much higher salary.

    #134089
    AvatarMinuteman3
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    60 games is only 37% of a regular 162 game season. Using that stat, the Cards have played the equivalent of 13.5 games. Harry’s son is woefully over par and perhaps he needs to sharpen his hitting again at ‘TAS’ (The Alternate Site). Maybe Jose can get him back on track. He learned a lot at Memphis last season but lost it soon afterward. In any case, he is not the only sad looking trooper. Two old bugaboos that bugged us in the playoffs with the Nats is still here – No O and Lotsa SOs.
    Not all bad, Ponce looked great to these sad old eyes last night. Goldy is the best player on the squad but I cannot understand the strikeouts he gets. But he looks better out of the box this year.
    There will be another bug outbreak somewhere some time this season. Ball players are treating some of the protocols like they treat the stay in the batter box rule. Face to face in the dugout with no masks is scary. One guy with the bug can take down the team. Enjoy the off day Cards it will be 14 games before you see another and, like this one, it will be on the road too – Chicago.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by AvatarMinuteman3.
    #134091
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Nine runs in game 2, and a total of 4 in games 3,4,and 5. This club makes it a habit of going through droughts on the offensive side these last few years. As always, a big part of it is poor pitch selection. What was it, the fifth inning maybe. Both Wong and Edman started the inning by striking out on 3-2 pitches. Wong struck out on a ball down and in, that he should have laid off and we would have had the lead off guy on. Edman got caught looking on a ball that may have been a bit outside, but was too close to take with two strikes. So one guy should have held the bat back and the other guy should have swung. Just not making good decisions on pitches. Easier said than done, but you gotta work on that. Don’t be afraid to swing at good pitches early in counts either.

    There was a time when we really hit well in Miller Park. Maybe we can get the mojo back up there.

    Good to see Ponce effective, although his pitch count was way too high. Here might be one of those wild predictions – Ponce will end up in the rotation and have a better year than Flaherty.

    #134092
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    I don’t believe Fowler’s start to this season has been adequate for a right fielder, 25. .298 OBP and .732 OPS doesn’t cut it in my opinion.

    #134093
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Fowler is currently tied for second on the team in BA and is tied for third in OBP. His OPS+ is 107, which is 7% higher than MLB average and is higher than his own career OPS+ of 105. Fowler is not and never has been a prototypical power-hitting corner OF. He is being himself, which is not news.

    In the bigger picture, Fowier is far from the worst problem with the offense right now. Molina, Wong, Carpenter and Bader are hitting far, far worse in this short, five-game season to date. Why only focus on the guys you don’t like? 😉

    #134094
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Fowler is currently tied for second on the team in BA and is tied for third in OBP. His OPS+ is 107, which is 7% higher than MLB average and is higher than his own career average of 105. Fowler is not and never has been a prototypical power-hitting corner OF. He is being himself, which is not news.

    That’s the point I was trying to make. He was at 98 OPS+ last year. We know he will likely be around average with the bat, and the glove won’t be anything to write home about. He’s a good player to have around if you need him. Most people are just bitter because of the contract, which we can’t change and is what it is.

    #134100
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    I have always felt Shilt hits Molina too high in the order. Last night he had him 6th, which isn’t bad. He should never be in the 5th slot. Ideally he is the 7th or 8th place hitter, as his production is not strong enough to be higher and his lack of speed hampers the ability to be aggressive on the bases.

    I would give him a day off now and then as well. Was surprised he did not have either Saturday or Sunday off.

    #134103
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    bikemike said:

    Was surprised he did not have either Saturday or Sunday off.

    Shildt justified it by noting the schedule had the team off Monday (and today). The true test is just ahead, as they play 14 games the next 14 days starting Friday. Then, one day off followed by 12 more consecutive. So games 26 of the next 27 days.

    It could become a challenge for Shildt later on if the veterans he is backing don’t cut it (Yadi, Waino, Fowler, Carp). Because it appears he will give them more leeway.

    #134110
    Avatarbccran
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    Dexter is being himself, you say?

    Well, which Dexter are you talking about?
    The 2016 Dexter with the Cubs who slashed
    .276/.395/.447/.842? The 2017 Dexter with the Cardinals who slashed .264/.363/.488/.851? The 2018 Dexter with the Cardinals who slashed .180/.278/.298/.576? The 2019 Dexter who slashed .238/.346/.409/.755 in a “comeback” season? If last year’s Dexter is Dexter being himself, and you’re happy with that, we don’t have the same idea of what a corner outfielder on a top contending team should slash.

    #134113
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Like I said,

    “His OPS+ is 107, which is 7% higher than MLB average and is higher than his own career OPS+ of 105.”

    You seem to want Fowler to be someone he is not.

    That you don’t like the roster choices and who is starting, those are valid concerns. In fact, you have made those points repeatedly.

    They should have signed a Beltran or Berkman type, you said. But they didn’t.

    They should start Ravelo and Dean, you say. But they aren’t.

    We know…

    However, citing Fowler’s current stats as if they are some kind of sore thumb, when they are not, is misplaced criticism.

    Why ride Fowler when Bader has been the far worse hitter in the starting outfield, this year and last year both? (At other positions, both Carpenter and Molina also had a lower OPS last year and this season to date compared to Fowler.)

    #134115
    Avatarbccran
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    I ride Fowler, BW, because he’s sub par offensively for his position, he’s lazy and a liability in the outfield (unlike Bader), and he makes a ridiculous amount of money for what he brings to the table (unlike O’Neill and Bader). I’m not going to compare him to other active Cardinals who have been far more productive during their Cardinal careers (like Yadi and Carp). Simply not going there. I like Mo, but I have called him out for not improving our outfield, and leaving it in the hands of a fading veteran and unproven youngsters. It’s probably going to raise it’s head and bite us. That’s just an opinion. We all have them.

    #134117
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
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    Ponce has faced 18 batters and been 0-2 ten times. I like that, you can build off that.

    #134120
    Avatarbccran
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    Let me ask a question, because I’m naive and unsophisticated in these matters. I just checked the career “OPS+“ leaders, and Stan Musial is ranked #15.

    Ahead of him are some guys like:

    Dan Brouthers (#8)
    Joe Jackson (#9)
    Pete Browning (tied #11)
    Mark McGwire (tied #11)
    Dave Orr (#14)

    By the way, all of those guys are also ahead of a guy named Willie Mays, who ranks #19.

    #134121
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    In other news, I don’t mind the Cardinals being off on Thursday evenings, as then I can watch noir movies on the Movies! channel. Noir films of the ‘40s and ‘50s is my favorite genre.

    #134123
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Responding to Cranny’s comment – you said “Let me ask a question”, but then never asked one. I assume you wonder about the legitimacy of OPS+ if those long-ago stars are ahead of such greats as Stan and Willie.

    OPS+ is OPS relative to league OPS. My thoughts on those early pioneers being ranked so high is that in the formative years of professional baseball, the talent level was likely much broader than in later years. Thus the difference between a great player in say 1890, and an average player was a bigger gap than in say 1925. Thus guys like Brouthers, Browning and Orr really were super stars who likely could have played in any era, but their competition was probably not as good as it was say in the mid-1920 or the 1950s, or any later era. They were Musial-esque or better but there were not as many Aarons, Mays, Kiners, Mathews, Mizes or Robinsons to compete against.

    Seeing Shoeless Joe at #9, it makes you realize what people were saying about him when they marveled at his skills. I remember reading a book about Babe Ruth when I was a kid, and Ruth said he modeled his swing after Joe Jackson. I had not heard of Shoeless Joe back then, but thought he must have been really good.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by bicyclemikebicyclemike.
    #134126
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
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    And I’d like to add that players who could slug in the 1800’s stood out like a sore thumb, and so does their ops+. Brouthers, Browning and Orr were slugging .450 to .500+ when the league was slugging .350 to .400

    But, no amount of deflection to the 1800’s changes BW’s point about the current team, and who is underperforming. The current team ops+ is 89 and Fowler is 107.

    #134145
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Good points JJ. The game was played different in the 1800s, and the equipment used was different. Sluggers were a rare breed, because trying to pound the ball was not always the best way to play the game then.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by bicyclemikebicyclemike.
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