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Nice to take this series and get over .500. Now with the games against the Royals and Pirates, it’s time to start moving further above the middle water mark and start catching the Cubs.
I like CMart as a starter much better than as a reliever. Then need to stretch him out at Springfield to be a starter. In the meantime give Oviedo and Woodford another start or two. I like them in the rotation better than Ponce Gomber but considering the number of doubleheader’s we have remaining we will probably need all of them.
Just playing devil’s advocate, but why not start CMart in StL for as long as he can go and then bring in the second starter? That assumes CMart has his stuff and control and is just pitch-count limited.
It’s easier to manage Carlos emotional swings from the pen. As a SP we’d be trusting him w/5 IP. I just don’t trust him to compete well.
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Gant and Miller have now thrown back to back games. The leash has loosened.It’s easier to manage Carlos emotional swings from the pen. As a SP we’d be trusting him w/5 IP. I just don’t trust him to compete well.
I’d rather have his one bad inning only put a strain on the game than him having us on heart attack watch every 9th inning he takes. I trust him more as a starter.
His stats are pretty similar between starting and relieving in his career…3.42 ERA/8.90K/3.37BB as a starter, 3.37 ERA/8.68K/3.54BB as a starter. He does allow fewer homers as a reliever.
Good pitching beats good hitting. We are loaded with good pitching.
Goldschmidt is quietly on his way to a great year. Yadi too (4-5 today and clutch as always). DeJong hit the ball hard today.(Nothing to show for it, but a good sign). Carp finding his groove. Dylan is a player and will help us this year…got that sweet Chipper Jones swing and good eye. Wong is solid. Maybe Dex too. Love the Brad Miller pickup, ala Lance Berkman, Will Clark,etc. Good to see Bader catching fire, but I’m not a believer yet.
Shildt managing our arms conservatively for the long haul is a good sign. Bringing along our rookies nicely while still giving the veterans their due. We’ve got a good skipper. Credit to Mo on that.
Probably not our year to win it all, but stranger things have happened. Wouldn’t that be epic if we pulled it off after the start we’ve had?
Go Cards.
Just playing devil’s advocate, but why not start CMart in StL for as long as he can go and then bring in the second starter? That assumes CMart has his stuff and control and is just pitch-count limited.
I wouldn’t have a problem with that. I just prefer him starting.
It’s easier to manage Carlos emotional swings from the pen. As a SP we’d be trusting him w/5 IP. I just don’t trust him to compete well.
I disagree with that. He is usually due for one meltdown inning per outing. That is much easier managed early in the game than in the 8th or 9th inning, like stl25 said.
When/if his meltdown inning happens in the first 3 innings we’ll need a piggyback starter on call every time he starts. If you have to have an arm ready to come in and pitch 3 IP, or more, well, what other starter gets that treatment?
I’d like gs and 25’s opinion on this also. Do you feel Carlos has reached his full potential? I don’t. He debuted in 2013, has 119 GS and nearly 900 IP at MLB. After all those opportunities, what’s holding him back? He’s nearly 29. I had to give up the “this is the year he grows up” excuse for him.
Honestly, I’ll be happy when he’s dealt. He doesn’t compete well, imo, too much drama going on there.
jj-cf-stl said:
When/if his meltdown inning happens in the first 3 innings we’ll need a piggyback starter on call every time he starts. If you have to have an arm ready to come in and pitch 3 IP, or more, well, what other starter gets that treatment?
Lets check the data on this three-inning supposition.
The last year Carlos was a full-time starter was 2017. In his 32 starts that season, he went FIVE innings or more 31 times. The other time, in his final start, he went 4 1/3.
In 2018, he made 18 starts before he went on the IL. He went five innings or more 13 times. He only couldn’t get through the fourth inning just once.
I didn’t go back further, but Martinez made at least his most recent 50 starts in a row and ALWAYS went more than three innings.
In comparison, how many times has Ponce been able to go five? CMart went at least five in 44 of his last 50 starts.
In fairness, Martinez would need time to build up as he was sick. But how much worse would that be than Flaherty being held back to be the last starter to return and then going just 1 2/3 in his first start?
I’d like gs and 25’s opinion on this also. Do you feel Carlos has reached his full potential? I don’t. He debuted in 2013, has 119 GS and nearly 900 IP at MLB. After all those opportunities, what’s holding him back? He’s nearly 29. I had to give up the “this is the year he grows up” excuse for him.
No I don’t think he has reached his full potential but that doesn’t mean he has been bad. It just means that the expectations for him have been sky high. If we are being honest, and I have been guilty of this myself, I think sometimes our opinion of CMart can be skewed by some of his antics, playfulness, hair color, off the field shenanigans, etc….. but on the field he has been pretty good. The problem is that the expectations everyone had for him were higher than just pretty good. I think most thought he would develop into a perennial Cy Young candidate. I remember during a TV broadcast a few years ago against the Cubs when Kris Bryant came to the plate against CMart Danny Mac made the comment that these two players could become two of the most dominant players in the NL and would be having fierce battles against each other for years to come. For the most part I would say both of those players have failed to live up to expectations.
But back to the original topic of what to do with CMart right now. Considering what he is being paid and considering his past performances I like him better in the rotation. Even without Hicks we have enough weapons in the bullpen to get by with but we need as many quality starters we can get with all of the doubleheaders coming up.
Now this winter if an opportunity comes along to go get a bat and the other team has interest in CMart then sure I would consider that but I wouldn’t give him away.
At one time Carlos was our great hope for a #1. Now we have a #1 and another candidate for it. He isn’t as important in the overall scheme of things.
Forget no. 1 for now. The Cards have a no. 5 who has a 5.25 ERA and averages less than four innings per start. Does anyone really believe that Martinez cannot do better? Really?
P.S. Shildt is making rumblings that they can’t afford to have Martinez build up on the fly. What is the difference if he pitches ahead of Ponce or after in a given game? Both of them are going to need long relief, anyway.
I don’t see why this has to be complicated. Pair them up and let them compete directly. (With Oviedo, Woodford and Gomber, they have enough others to start the doubleheaders. I believe the innings can be managed among the pitchers they have.)
I’d like gs and 25’s opinion on this also. Do you feel Carlos has reached his full potential? I don’t.
Of course not. But because he hasn’t become an ace, it doesn’t mean he has no value.
Since he became a starter in 2015, he’s 44th in innings pitched, 12th in ERA, 24th in BA allowed, 55th in OBP allowed, 4th in slug% allowed, 44th in WHIP, 19th in FIP, 31st in K/9, 1st in lowest HR rate allowed…and so on.
So while he hasn’t been a #1 starter, or at least hasn’t been consistently one, he has been a very good pitcher. At worst he’s been a #2. That’s plenty good. He just has to stay healthy.
If the Cardinals are going to continue treating Martinez with kid gloves, they might as well trade him now. They are going to continue to erode his trade value by handling him the way they do. As Brian said, they are building up the innings of Ponce already. Carlos has a much better chance of being a great starting pitcher. Build up his innings instead and let Ponce be his piggyback.
I already would like to trade Martinez. However, I think this offseason would be the best time to do it. I am not sure we can get full value for him during this season.
Looking at next year, we have Flaherty, Hudson, Kim, Woodford, Oviedo, Gomber and Poncedeleon already available to start. Wainwright is a starter now with an expiring contract but may be back for next year. In addition, there is Rondon, FaGalde, Thompson and Liberatore coming up. We also have Cabrera, Reyes and Helsley as possible starters.
BW, he doesn’t get pulled because they have trusted him to starter IP. They don’t want to wreck the pen so even if he blows up in the second (last start) he stays in. My bad, didn’t word it properly.
If they pull him when they see his head is coming unscrewed, you’d need a piggyback SP. Regardless, i’d like to see him dealt.
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