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Weaver and Flaherty are not the “Ace of the staff”.CMartinez is supposed to be.He has been here for 4-5 years.Weaver is barely into his 2nd full season and Flaherty is basically a rookie.Comprende?
Carlos is also paid pretty damn well to be the leader of the staff now that Waino is pretty much finished.
The constant failure of Cmartinez to step up are getting past the excuses point.If a guy needs to sit because of his play it’s DeJong…he has had two really bad games after coming back…3 errors in one and i think 2 last night and one other really bad play
what i dont understand from so many is:
-Fowler needs to go away because he is bad
-DeJong needs to be given time to work it out
One gets a leash and one doesnt…and before you can cry we have already given Fowler a shot, i dont know if that is really true..it is true he has been bad, but once he started playing every 3rd 4th day he wasnt really being given that shot to fix it in the field and at the plate
i am not a fan of running him out there everyday to fix him…but i also am not a fan of DeJong sitting in the 3 spot or playing the SS spot before he is fully back and capable…
we have handed DeJong coming off an injury and new managerial change the most important spot in the lineup and in the field….based off of what? not even a full year last year of encouraging stats? a subpar pre-injury batting line, and so-so with some upside SS defense?
if we are going to hand people important spots and huge leashes based off of past short term performances and decent couple month long decent lines…so be it… but Pham and Fowler deserve those leashes as much as DeJong does
i am all for putting guys in roles and leaving them…and i like the lineup Shildt puts out there…but the reasoning for sitting one guy isnt used across the board then where is the integrity of the decision
IMO..go with the lineup he went with…stick to it…and sink or swim because of it…Pham, Fowler, Wong, Gyorko…all of them…
If this is the team the FO supposedly thinks is good enough, then play them…it would leave no excuses that the management has to be extremely culpable of not providing help and wrong evaluations of talent.For all of MMs faults, he was very good at taking what little he had and making them seem better than they were, the last two seasons showed his resilience in find combinations that made up for the lack of performing talent he was given….it turned out he couldnt do it well enough and his tactics probably turned parts of the clubhouse against him which cost him his job…but he still kept the teams in it, even if we had to play the Voit, and Meija, Pena, BAron, Gyorko’s at SS, Adams in LF, Wong in CF…jsut to stay afloat at times…. it wasnt pretty, it provided a lot of ugliness and at times perhaps even straight up bad decisions that cause other problems…but at least the team was in it
I like Shildt, i think he can do well, but for me the best shot the Cardinals have at real change is for them to play the guys who the FO said was supposed to be good enough to win. Sink or swim, and if the sink (which their play looks like so far this year) then it would force the FO to take responsibility and make the real changes needed
No, I totally get why the guy who’s allowed a .204 average with men in scoring position and .210 for his career, which are the very definition of mentally taxing situations… would be called mentally suspect.
It’s a hodge podge of players who lack concentration between the lines. The “potential” unfortunately doesn’t equate to performance. Mo put this team together. He has to live with it until he makes some changes. I truly hope a player move or two is made by the deadline to send a message, if nothing else.
Changes have been made re the coaches and the manager, when IMHO it’s been the players all along.stlcard25
I also find it interesting that the errors last night were by Dejong and Gyorko but the majority of complaints in this thread are about Pham and Ozuna’s defense.
I agree. The comments here are misplaced.
bccran
My contention all along, 2016, has been that you play the Cards you’re dealt. You have guys like Martinez who can play offense but not defense. And guys like Wong that can play defense but not offense. You have guys like Fowler who isn’t playing either. And a supposed ace who’s all over the map. Any manager would have a hard time with it.
Ironically, Martinez didn’t start yesterday and Wong got two hits.
Most managers today do not have the cajonas to sit players that should be sat…..hence, the wimplification of the game.
I couldn’t find “wimplification” in my Webster’s. I not sure if there should be an “L” in there. It says it like it is and I will use it myself when necessary, like now! Good job Pugs.
ps… “cajonas” wasn’t found either, but its been around long enough that most get it.
So CMart should get a pass because he has had some success in the past? Yet some of the same posters will crucify Bowman/Cecil every chance because they have been disappointing after having success in their roles before.I get on Cmart because he is supposed to be the guy who shuts the other team down and starts a winning streak for our team.
I agree vthat DeJong is not ready for 3rd in the batting order.Hand injuries for hitters are definite game changers.He needs to be hitting 6th instead.As for Fowler ..it was a mistake contract…but since it is what it is ………he would not be the 1st player to suddenly lose it and go south all of a sudden.Pham had a positive yesterday 3 hits,a negative..idiot baserunning pickoff again..that is 5 or 6 times now this season,,a negative poor throw in CF……
All in all a few positives and a bunch of negatives.If we could really convince a contender to give us a big haul to take CMart then sign me up. He has never been an ace. He is really a solid number 2 starter and that is ok. Nothing wrong with that but we have overhyped him into something that he isn’t.
Stl25, why don’t you just say what you want to say? Your thinly veiled accusations are obvious.
DeJong is having a rough go on his return,But he is the best Cards have for SS.Plus his bat is needed also.So not understanding why he needs to play makes me question why that is hard to understand. I realize we all look differently at the same situation but come on people.As for Fowler not getting a chance to work out of his funk……………………………….his play is so bad he looks like he is just going thru the motions to me.Enough of him.Munoz gets ripped constantly for his defensive work at SS and Gyorko/Garcia are less than adequate at SS so DEJong almost has to play into form.
So CMart should get a pass because he has had some success in the past? Yet some of the same posters will crucify Bowman/Cecil every chance because they have been disappointing after having success in their roles before.I get on Cmart because he is supposed to be the guy who shuts the other team down and starts a winning streak for our team.
And that’s the disappointing thing about Carlos for me too. I do think he has some times where he lacks concentration. What I don’t think it is…is lack of mental fortitude.
Personally, I think he’s not fully healthy. The sudden lack of control, the drop in velocity…it’s too curious for me. I think he tried to rush back and the club let him and we’ll see him shut down by August if the team doesn’t get back in contention.
gscottar
Participant
If we could really convince a contender to give us a big haul to take CMart then sign me up. He has never been an ace. He is really a solid number 2 starter and that is ok. Nothing wrong with that but we have overhyped him into something that he isn’t.Stl25, why don’t you just say what you want to say? Your thinly veiled accusations are obvious.
Carlos is a #2 (only if you consider the top 10 pitchers in the game as #1s) who is being paid like a #4 or #5. Look at all sorts of pitchers who didn’t become anything special until after the age Carlos is right now. Heck, look at Waino and Carpenter from the last 15 years. IMO if you could get a huge haul then go for it, but if not, I’m not willing to just throw that away for a couple of prospects.
And you know why. The criticism here is far from balanced and while the reason isn’t blatant, IMO, it’s still beneficial to recognize your own prejudices. We all have them.
Carp – fine.
Molina – fine.
Wong – poor on offense this year.
Has badly underperformed. Good defensive.
DeJong – good two way player who should come around eventually post injury.
Gyorko – wasn’t brought in to be a starter. Utility infielder.
Martinez – as bad as it gets on defense.
Garcia – okay utility man
Ozuna – joke as a cleanup hitter
who was brought in to supply power.
Pham – never know what you’re going to get either offensively or defensively
Fowler – just cashing his blotted paychecks.
Bader – potential to be good all around starting CF.The hand that MM and MS have been dealt.
Then you also have 2 rookies and a second year man in the rotation right now. And an ace who’s immature.
Hodge Podge.
Jags, do you really think it is fair to compare the leash give DeJong (3-4 games) to the leash given to Fowler (+/- 80 games)?
CC..
i do understand it is a little much…BUT it’s not exactly 80 straight games in a row chance for Fowler, and DeJong wasnt an All Star before his injury
If we bring in last year to justify DeJong’s leash, then you have to bring in Fowler last year who looked awful and DID turn it around as well…plus that salary is a factor whether it should be or not
getting Fowler right, if it is possible, is probably one of the biggest things the org should be trying to figure out…whether it is for him staying and be productive or raising his value to move him…
fixing Pham, and DEJong, and Wong are important too…but there is a lot less invested in them and they cause less problems than Fowler potentially doesIf you dont do everything you can t o fix Fowler (which might be hard to watch by playing him so much) then you are essentially giving up on him and in that case you might as well waive him and move on and eat the salary even all of it… but if he is going to be on the team, then you have to play him, because getting him right is the only justification for his presence and any kind of faith you have in him
DeJong deserves a leash…it just might be ugly like last night…but to me so does Fowler at this point…
and as for ugliness, i think his hitting is ugly, but his defense while not good, is limited to RF and not at the most important position on the field for defense…he may not make exciting plays anymore, but the chance of his defense causing major downfalls for the pitcher is pretty small….whiel DeJong’s errors and bad play usually is far worse and CAN happen far more often…
so sure…he has been back for 7 games or so…but 2 of them his defense was so bad it may have cost us the games…while Fowler’s defense and bad offense rarely costs us the game as he isnt in ap rime position defensively or in the offense
DeJong at 3 in the lineup and SS, has potential for far worse problems more often than Fowler in the 7th spot and in RF…
which is to me why Fowler has been so disappointing…not because his defense and offense are so poor, but because his defense seems to haev dropped off SO much from his move to CF when it was supposed to help…THEN we put him in important spots of the lineup so early and he disappointed…
i say give him a leash in the 7th spot for the year…if it doesnt get better you give up on him, you cant blame MM anymore, you cant blame not getting time at the plate, you cant blame consistent batting spot, you ant blame anything but him…you will haev given him every opportunity to figure it out himself and through internal help… if he doesnt want to play well here whether consciously or not, then he shoudlnt be on the teamWhile understanding wanting to see Fowler right his ship I think that Fowler was underperforming the first half last season and played better the 2nd half and he has been beyond terrible so far this season.If you are a half-full glass person you could say he will pick up his play this half.Half-empty glass person says Fowler has had 2 poor half season of the last 3 he played for the Cards.At what point do you decide Fowler is a lost cause and start playing for the future by playing Bader/O`Neill and bring up Mercado?Do you wait another 20-30 games and then say enough?As for DeJong he is simply the best SS on the roster and Cards need to live with the bumps along the way.You can not say that about Fowler and IMHO Pham either.I think Bader can play better defense in CF and give comparable offense without the basepath blunders and better base stealing.Mercado can possibly provide a lift if given a chance.32 year old underperforming veteran and 30 year old with multiple issues are not the future IMHO.Same with Gyorko……big disappointment this year..time to consider seeing if any team has interest.Gyorko is signed thru 2019 fairly reasonable amount so he could draw interest for that reason also.
I have seen a lot of ripping on Pham for getting picked off. I am not happy he was picked off but looking at everything, I am not totally disappointed. The Cardinals were up 2-1 and the pitcher was batting. He started to steal 2nd on the first move. He guessed wrong. If he is right and Martinez doesn’t lay down a bunt, he is on second and then Martinez bunts him to third.
The next hitter would have been Carpenter. He is a pull hitter and has a shift against him a lot. If he gets a hit to RF with Heyward playing there and Pham on 2nd, Pham doesn’t score. If Pham is on 3rd, he scores on any hit.
There are a lot of runners who attempt steals on the first movement by the pitcher. Many times it pays off. Last night it didn’t.
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