April 3, 2018 at 10:39 pm #47350Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - Annual
For the record, the Cards and Leone lose 5-4 on two ninth-inning home runs. St. Louis falls to 2-3 on the year.April 3, 2018 at 10:40 pm #47351Euro DandyParticipantFree
BHC, yep some of those things don’t add up. Extra pen guy you rarely use….double switching in the 7th by replacing your 3 hitter, with a 3-run lead no less…..then taking the pitcher out anyway to start the next inning even though the dubious double switch would’ve allowed you to keep the pitcher (Bowman) in to start the next inning…..plus, Bowman had thrown just 2 pitches to end the 7th, so it’s not like that was the reason Matheny changed his thoughts.
And we thought Maddux might help put an end to this kind of nonsense.April 3, 2018 at 10:48 pm #47352Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - AnnualApril 3, 2018 at 10:55 pm #47353858booyahParticipantFree
Well he needed to bet the ball inside more on that pitch to Yelich for sure. There’s just no excuse for the pitch to Braun! The call sucked and the execution was poor and someone like Yadi should’ve calmed the situation down. Even Leone could’ve called time and composed himself.
There’s some things that make me want to believe this team can be better than the last season. The only problem is we’ve got the same guy running the team we’ve had the last 2 seasons and it appears that nothing on that end will ever change.April 3, 2018 at 11:11 pm #47356Cards667ParticipantFree
The only games they have won have been when Jedd Gyorko started. Get healthy!
I know I’m new here but I will start my spread of the underrated Jedd Gyorko.April 3, 2018 at 11:15 pm #47357
It’s too bad Matheny doesn’t get to use hindsight to make his decisions like the fans of the team do. Even then, he would get second guessed.April 3, 2018 at 11:32 pm #47358BlackHillsCardParticipantFree
Its not hindsight when they have the information in front of them and refuse to use it! Thats the point.April 4, 2018 at 12:29 am #47359
So who should Matheny have used? Who, exactly, should he have brought in to pitch and when should he have made the switch?April 4, 2018 at 2:16 am #47361BlackHillsCardParticipantFree
Not Leone! Matheny botched everything iandn that game and it started with double switching Carp. Apologizing for MM is hilarious when people bend over backwards defending his incompetence. Why even talk about using analytics if you won’t use it? What happened, Maddox went rock and Matheny went paper?April 4, 2018 at 6:13 am #473631964cardsParticipantPaid - Annual
Holland cannot get here fast enough. The club needs someone who can consistently shut things down in the ninth.April 4, 2018 at 6:31 am #47365stlcard25ParticipantPaid - Annual
Brutal loss…in what seems to be a common thread for this team the last three years. Hopefully Martinez can right the ship tomorrow and the offense can push some runners across.April 4, 2018 at 6:32 am #47366OnyxgemParticipantFree
MM keeps showing he is as clueless as they come as a manager, keep taking your best hitter out f the game in those DUMB double switches moron….jesus the guy is utterly clueless.April 4, 2018 at 7:45 am #47368mudvilleParticipantPaid - Annual
This loss is on Matheny, and nobody else. I don’t thing he understands what he’s looking at during a MLB game. Leone was clearly struggling to get the last out in the bottom of the eighth, yet MM brings him back for the ninth. I think any other manager in the game would have brought the veteran Bud Norris into the game to close it out. If Norris failed, at least the manager could blame the front office, but with Leone, who’s barely past rookie status, and who obviously didn’t have his best stuff, the loss has to be on Matheny who looked like a fool for giving this game away. IMHO, the problem with MM is that his stated first priority is ‘protecting his players’ (presumably from the fans and the media), and not winning. I’m not sure winning even really matters to him.April 4, 2018 at 7:54 am #47370bccranParticipant
This loss had nothing to do with MM. His (and his pitching coach’s) decisions were sound. Two reliable relievers made mistakes, that’s all.April 4, 2018 at 8:09 am #4737114NyquisTParticipant
The Flaherty start, 9Ks/5inn, gets forgotten when the BP coughs up what should have been a W. One can’t help but remember what happened in the 8th and 9th. I never come on here and complain about the manager, the guy with the ball has to bear down. Is this what the whole season will be like, frustration? At some point trust becomes an issue.April 4, 2018 at 8:10 am #47372OnyxgemParticipantFree
Yeah no blame at all to a coach who continues to take the best hitter out before the game is over…the guy is clueless as heck it is comical to watch people try to defend his stupidity!April 4, 2018 at 8:11 am #47373Euro DandyParticipantFree
There was a lot of second guessing on Matheny without hindsight last night. I and others didn’t like some of it at the time it happened. Short bench and other concerns, with a 3-run lead…just didn’t make any sense to take Carpenter out. That may not be the direct reason we lost the game, but these things add up over 162 games. You could always pinch hit for the pitcher later if the situation warranted. Then Matheny decides to take Bowman out anyway after just two pitches. That’s simply not thinking or managing past the end or your nose. The Brewers broadcast crew was kind of chuckling and thanking Matheny for removing Carpenter at the time in what they speculated could potentially be an extra inning game. We’ve seen Matheny box himself into a corner before by being tone deaf of the nuances of late-inning management. And yes, all this had a consequence…the last Cardinal out of the game was a feeble strike out by Garcia in Carpenter’s spot.
As for who Matheny should’ve used from the pen and when exactly, yes that could be legitimately debated all day long. However, I wouldn’t assume that the criticism of Matheny’s pen usage is purely based on hindsight. Matheny has earned a fair amount of second guessing over the years, and to deny that and attribute it to simply unfair Monday morning quarterbacking is probably because someone simply doesn’t want to have that discussion.April 4, 2018 at 9:07 am #47388mudvilleParticipantPaid - Annual
Leone’s slider wasn’t working and he couldn’t spot his fastball. That was obvious while it was happening. So how stupid is it to bring him back for the ninth?April 4, 2018 at 9:26 am #47395gscottarParticipantPaid - Annual
Tough loss last night. It will be nice to get our bullpen back to full strength. We need Holland and Gregerson. This is the price we pay for waiting until opening day to sign our lockdown closer.April 4, 2018 at 9:37 am #4739814NyquisTParticipant
If Leone keeps the ball in the park there would be no squabbling. He didn’t, so let the mud sling at the manager. I’m not taking sides on that discussion. Just saying that its on Leone.April 4, 2018 at 9:41 am #47401bicyclemikeModeratorPaid - Annual
I was surprised to see Leone come back out for the ninth. But I think the problem is deeper – we just do not have the depth of quality pitching it takes to consistently win.
I also think management can be questioned for their philosophy on how to use the pitching personnel. One is their refusal to allow a starter to go through a lineup the third time. This puts a lot of strain on the bullpen. Flaherty was at 91 pitches and looked good. Who knows if it would have made a difference to bring him out for the sixth, as he did give up the run in the 5th. But sometimes you have to do that, unless you have about 4 bullpen pitchers that are lights-out. Not sure any team has that much bullpen depth.
In full disclosure, some of this is just me griping. I do not like the way the game is played in this era. I hate 13 man pitching staffs and only 4 bench players. It’s stupid – it’s all micro-management based on pitching, with little ability to utilize the bench.
If you are going to play the game this way, you gotta have a DH as at least that takes away some of the need for a deeper bench.
Anyway, it’s always going to be an adventure early in the season with this pitching staff, and Matheny at the helm. Once Holland is ready, things could gel and we will see guys settle in and effective. But if Holland turns out to be Cecil-esque, we will really be in trouble.April 4, 2018 at 10:02 am #47404gscottarParticipantPaid - Annual
If Holland turns out to be Cecil-esque then we will be battling more against the Reds and Pirates instead of the Brewers and Cubs. I don’t even want to think about that.April 4, 2018 at 10:26 am #47408colhuskerParticipantFree
Ouch -tough loss last night. Let’s win the series today.April 4, 2018 at 3:24 pm #47437
BHC, I am not going to address the double switch as I don’t know enough about the total situation to be able to support or question the move. However, since you are so adamant that Matheny shouldn’t have pitched Leone against Braun, I thought you would have someone in mind that he should have brought in.
So, let’s look at who he had available in the ‘pen to bring in:
Mayers – hadn’t pitched since opening day but has a lifetime 18.00 ERA. In his only career appearance against Braun, he hit him with a pitch. If he allows a run, Matheny gets chastised because “he is a terrible pitcher” and hasn’t proved he can handle the situation.
Tuivailala – hadn’t pitched in 3 days but has allowed a run in both appearances. Braun is 1 for 3 with a single in his life against Sam. If he allows a run, Matheny gets chastised because he hasn’t been pitching well.
Hicks – he has pitched in 3 of the first 4 games and never faced Braun in the regular season. If he allows a run, Matheny gets chastised because he is overusing Hicks.
Norris – he has pitched in 2 of the first 4 games and had pitched in Monday’s game. Braun is .313/.371/.594/.965 in his career against him. If he allows a run, Matheny gets chastised because Norris is no good (a common theme this spring), he pitched the previous night, and Braun hits him well.
I would say that Matheny is in a no-win situation and loses no matter the situation with the exception of the Cardinals winning. In that situation, it would considered luck that they won.April 4, 2018 at 3:39 pm #47439
Euro, I notice that you did question Matheny’s double switch prior to the end of the game. I have no problem with that. Carpenter is a key cog. I also would need to look into the situation more to try to understand what Matheny might be thinking. The one thought going through my mind is wondering if he did it partially for a defensive reason.
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