2018 Reg Seas Game #25 – at Bucs – Fri 4/27

Home The Cardinal Nation Forums Open Forum 2018 Reg Seas Game #25 – at Bucs – Fri 4/27

Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 54 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #50342
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    In some defense of Holland, he had poor defense behind him. Two errors – Martinez and Pham – and runs scored on each of those errors. Pham’s tied the score.

    #50343
    stlcard25stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Bowman hung on by a thread. So much pressure on the pitching staff, need to get a run in the top of the 11th.

    #50344
    AvatarCardinals2016
    Participant

    Free

    Cardinals don’t deserve the win today

    #50345
    AvatarCardinals2016
    Participant

    Free

    Gyorko gets on first. Bader pinch run’s and gets doubled off on a fly ball to the outfield. Pathetic lack of fundamentals by this team today.

    #50346
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    There should be no defense for Holland. Even the balls that were hit were hit hard.

    As much as I down on Norris all Spring Training I admitted I was wrong and ate my crow salad. With that said the only reason to remove him as the closer right now was the $14Mil going to Holland who clearly still isn’t ready!

    #50347
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    I disagree. The errors were crucial. Martinez needed to at least block that ball and Pham’s fielding error allowed the tying run to score. Had that runner remained at third instead, the game could have been over in the ninth.

    #50348
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    St. Louis blows a 5-0 lead and the Pirates win in 11, 6-5. The Cards fall to 15-10 on the season.

    #50349
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    People love Hicks and they are overlooking his 7 BB/9 which cannot be sustainable for long success.

    #50350
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    Brian you’re assuming the game would be over. The fact is the Pirates will still have had the tying run on 3rd and zero outs! You have no idea how the rest the inning would’ve played out.

    #50351
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    It seems clear how the inning would have ended had Pham not erred. Instead of runner on third with no out, it would have been runners on second and third with no out.

    Everything else could have been the exact same:

    Moroff flied out to short center. Runners held.
    Freese walked intentionally to set up potential double play.
    Polanco and Marte fanned.
    Game over 5-4.

    P.S. I am not letting Holland off the hook, but he was let down by the defense.

    #50353
    stlcard25stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Well deserved loss, and a very pathetic effort all around from the 6th inning on. Two hits and 7 strikeouts for the offense, and obviously the Holland implosion.

    #50354
    CardsRedSox4EverCardsRedSox4Ever
    Participant

    Free

    Matheney puts “player development” above actually winning games, so is inclined to leave pitchers in longer than they should, and bring in relievers when they aren’t ready. It’s been his method since 2012, and he’s been very consistent. Same goes with his reluctance to change the lineup, which took over a year until about a week ago. He doesn’t view the game or his role the way we do. Bringing Holland in to close in a close game even though he’s still in a ST rhythm is a case in point. He’s trying to season Holland on the mound in a close game. Not the way I would utilize the BP, nor would most MLB managers, but apparently the Cards FO agrees with him. Could be another long season with late inning losses like we saw last year.

    #50355
    Avatar858booyah
    Participant

    Free

    Well sox’s he’s a reflection of his VP, GM and owner.

    I will say the play on that ball by Pham was odd. Mistimed and maybe had trouble seeing it a bit. Martinez has no excuse. That ball has to be 1 out at least.

    #50356
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Pham seemed a bit tentative approaching the wall. Perhaps he was surprised that it was smoked over his head even though he was playing deep. Guys often say the balls hit right at them are the hardest to judge. However, the error was afterward when he was unable to pick up the ball off the ground cleanly.

    #50357
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    It seems clear how the inning would have ended had Pham not erred. Instead of runner on third with no out, it would have been runners on second and third with no out.

    Everything else could have been the exact same:

    Moroff flied out to short center. Runners held.
    Freese walked intentionally to set up potential double play.
    Polanco and Marte fanned.
    Game over 5-4.

    P.S. I am not letting Holland off the hook, but he was let down by the defense.

    You’re assuming all of those things play out exactly the same way. You have no way of knowing that it would. Neither do I but its ingenuous to say the game would be over without the error. You have no idea how Matheny would manage the bullpen and the pitching/hitting match-ups beyond that point.

    #50358
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Well, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Matheny would surely have removed Holland at that point whether or not Pham erred and the tying run scored. All of the conditions would have been the same from there on out so there is no reason to suspect he would act differently. No way to ever know for sure, but it seems far more likely to me that he would have played the rest of the inning the same way than not.

    But the point that cannot be argued is that had Pham not erred, Holland would have exited with the Cards still in the lead, instead of the score having already been tied.

    #50359
    AvatarBw52
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I was under the impression that the great Pham never erred or struckout in a crucial spot.Isn`t he the “greatest thing since sliced bread”?Jose Martinez was Mr.Great a week ago.What happened?

    #50370
    AvatarPugsleyAddams
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    A game such as this is how tailspins are formed. I fear a looming major freefall in the standings. Contenders don’t lose games in this fashion….plain and simple. You see it every September while watching playoff bound teams, where it’s announced a team is 77-0 when leading after 7 innings or 83-0 when leading after 8 innings of play. There will be no such accolades associated with our Cardinals later this year. We are only a month into this marathon and have already coughed up more leads than Danica Patrick at a Daytona 500 race. Let’s see….. we have the middle game of our series at Miller Park where we held a commanding 4-1 advantage heading to the bottom of the 8th. Milwaukee hit us with 2 runs in the 8th and then solo jacks by Braun and Yelich in the 9th put the finishing touches on a heartbreaking Cardinal loss. Then there was the Diamondbacks hitting us with 3 8th inning runs to give them the series victory in St. Louis. And how about just this past Tuesday vs NY where the Mets tagged our bullpen with single tallies in the 8th and 10th frames for the victory. I’m just going off the top of my head here…it seems that I’m missing another late collapse. Anyway you get the point, red flags abound as to our chances for October play…. and unfortunately, these flags are not cardinal red in color.

    #50371
    stlcard25stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Bw52, Pham is far from the biggest issue with this team right now.

    For starters, as mentioned before the game… Bader should have started over Fowler. Fowler as a righty this year is hitting .045/.185/.045 for a -20 wRC+. Small sample size I know, but that’s ridiculous. Bader in his short career is at .379/.471/.655 for a 202 wRC+ against LHP. Small samples too but in his minor league career he’s been absurd against lefties. Iirc his lowest OPS year he was still over 1.100 against them. Absolutely no excuse for NOT starting him over Fowler against every single lefty from here on out.

    #50372
    Avatar1964cards
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    A couple of thoughts after I have cooled off and slept on my thoughts. I go back to an interview with TLR in which he spoke about “putting players in situations where they can succeed”…

    – Martinez has a very good bat and I agree that he should be the every day first baseman. However, he did not win that role through fielding abilities. He should be pulled in favor of a stronger defensive player in the late innings.
    – Pham just did not catch a ball he normally catches. Things like that happen … It was painful, but I can accept this.
    – Holland did not have it last night … I know he was a victim of some bad luck, but he was getting hit and I felt getting hit hard. I asked myself what TLR would have done after Holland got thru the third hitter … I think TLR would have pulled him.

    #50374
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Good thoughts, 1964. Here are my reactions, FWIW.

    Martinez. Matheny has taken a lot of heat for double-switching out his #3 hitter. (For example, D Goold has been especially vocal on this point.) The Cards had a 5-2 lead heading into the home ninth. Was that comfortable enough to pull Martinez? The obvious choice to replace him defensively would have been Carpenter, who had pinch-hit in the top of the inning, as MM was trying to extend the lead. Without the benefit of hindsight, I am not sure what move would have been best.

    Pham. My concern was not with the missed catch. It was with the muffed attempt to pick up the ball afterward. Good players sometimes make mistakes, but that one really hurt them.

    Holland. It often seems a pitcher who appears to be struggling is left in one batter too long. I did not see how fast Matheny had Leone up in the pen. Was Leone not ready in time to come in earlier, or was the manager trying to show confidence in his closer?

    #50377
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    The errors hurt of course, but Holland was the key player in last night’s loss. He was not fooling anyone. The issue on the Pham error was that Mercer smoked that ball. Had it been a routine fly ball, or grounder, or strikeout, we would not be discussing this.

    I was a bit concerned when Holland came in for the ninth, but felt it was a good opportunity to get him into that role since we had a three run lead. But because he has struggled, you gotta have someone getting ready. After a double and single to start the inning, you really need to have guys ready.

    Specific to the errors, they killed us, no doubt. But they were not errors on routine plays. Moran and Mercer both scorched those pitches.

    We went in to this season with an uncertain rotation and bullpen, where we are jockeying guys around and sort of trying this and that. And then our defense is not great. When we play Carpenter, we are going with below average defense at first, third, and right field. DeJong is probably average at short, although he seems to be getting better on the defensive side.

    Tough one to lose, but we are going to see more of this with our bullpen. Not to mention Matheny’s questionable late game decisions.

    #50385
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Defensively…..
    Yadi is elite, period. DeJong is a plus at SS, and both are not your typical dead lineup holes for their positions. Paul’s fielding technique is very disciplined. All good.

    Gyorko is the best 3B we have, at a position this org can’t seem to develop a “3B of the future”. I have him as an above avg defensive 3B within mlb.

    Matt is a DH, not a 3Bman, which is why this org moved him off of 3B in the minors. If he’s not going to be a plus bat he loses all his value. He’s allergic to leather and a below average base runner.
    We also currently have a career outfielder manning 1B, and last night it looked like it. We have two DH’s for 1B, with Jose rightfully earning the starts. No, Jose is not a good outfielder, either.

    Wong has plus D, but the bat is very inconsistent. I’d prefer Gyorko starting more at 3B, with Carp and Wong at 2B, playing the hottest hand of the two. When Jose needs a day off, Matt at 1B.

    When Gyorko or DeJong need a day off, start Greg Garcia. At least then the left side is solid, and besides, currently carps bat does not bench Garcias’ D at 3b and his bat.

    #50387
    Avatar14NyquisT
    Participant

    jj, figure a way to get Martinez in RF or LF. I have no problem with Carp at 1B, Wong 2B, DeYong ss and Gyorko 3B. I think that I’d rather have the weak glove in RF or LF (move Ozuna to RF). Removing our present RFer to the bench kills two birds with one stone. This team goes nowhere with him in the order, he can’t hit anymore so he is a certifiable bust. And if Holland can’t get his act together he will be too, (see Cecil).

    #50389
    AvatarCariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    I doubt LaRussa would have removed Holland after 3 batters or even at all. I’m sure he did occasionally but I remember his stubborness to not remove his closer when he was struggling as a specific beef some had with LaRussa.

Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 54 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

First-hand news and commentary on the St. Louis Cardinals™ and minor league system for over 20 years