Who Is Your #5 Starter/Starters The Rest of the Way?

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  • #68988
    UConn Card
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    A comment on last night’s game thread stated they did not want to see anymore Wainwright starts. Let’s run with that idea. Who is your fifth starter right now?

    First, let’s start with what St Louis is actually doing. Per the FSMW pre-game last night, Ponce has been inserted into rotation to start Wednesday. This is to give all starters an extra day’s rest and takes into account off days on the 20th and 27th. They are monitoring the rookie pitchers’ innings – Flaherty is at 132.1 IP to date and was 148.2 IP combined in ’17 which is a career high for him.

    The rotation, in order of starts:
    Flaherty
    Gant
    (Wainwright)
    Mikolas
    (Ponce)
    Gomber

    Waino’s ‘spot’ in the rotation comes up next Sunday, then again on Sunday, the 23rd and the last regular day of the season.

    As currently configured, Flaherty is set up to pitch the Wild Card game (or the season finale on regular rest)

    St Louis needs a fifth starter at least twice more. If not Wainwright, then whom?

    #68991
    PadsFS
    Participant

    I’m fine with resting Flaherty and company a little. In 2013, Wacha jumped from 137 innings to 180 high-pressure innings (incl. the playoffs). He was never really the same after that. It could be argued that we gave away wins in 2016 and 2017 by pitching him as such in 2013 and 2014.

    Similarly, Martinez hovered from 115 to 120 to 116 from 2012-2014 over varying levels of play before jumping to 180 in 2015.

    It’s not that I don’t think they are carful with the players, but that our three most talented pitchers are all injured before we hit the potential playoffs.

    These numbers don’t include spring training.

    #68994
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    Good point re spring training innings. Another good point re looking back at Wacha and Martinez’ prior jumps in workload.

    Goold mentioned in his latest Chatwrap that Schildt indicated there would be games from here on out in which neither Hudson nor Hicks would be available. Felt Hudson had hit a bit of a wall and wanted to make sure he was rested.

    #68995
    stlcard25
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    I’m good with the six above as the guys for the stretch. Use Ponce to give the other guys a rest and you’ve still got Ross and Weaver in the pen for the long man role. In a non coincidence, I believe that’s why Hudson went to the bullpen even though I think he’d be the #3/4 of this staff right now.

    It is crazy to think of how well this team has pitched despite the upheaval of the staff this year. If you had said before the year that our year end rotation would be Mikolas plus the Memphis gang due to long term injuries to all the others, that Weaver would regress, Reyes would pitch 4 innings, Holland would be historically bad, Leone injured most of the season, Cecil hurt and awful, Lyons basically cut, Gregerson hurt and ineffective, and the bullpen generally depending on Bud Norris and some rookies…I would have guessed we win 70, 75 games tops.

    #68999
    Bw52
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    I really wonder about Wainwright being effective in any role besides long man /mop up.Sure he had a couple decent innings but otherwise he wasn`t fooling anybody.love his grit and heart but I have doubts if the arm is willing and able.Shildt and Maddux will have to walk a tightrope with this rotation for the rest of the year.

    Mikolas
    Flaherty,Gomber,Gant,Poncedeleon,Wainwright,Weaver?,Tyson Ross ?

    #69008
    Cardinals27
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    I don’t understand when you have 5 effective starters, MIkolas, Flaherty, Poncedeleon, Gant and Gomber that you have to change something. 9 scoreless innings in rehab didn’t change my mind about Wainrights role. He is one of the best Cardinals of all time, but I would rather see him pitching 2 innings bridging a gap from the 5th to the 7th. That way he can throw as hard as he can, as long as he can.

    #69009
    gscottar
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    My top four is:

    Mikolas
    Flaherty
    Gant
    Gomber

    I think the 5th starter should be Poncedeleon with Ross as the backup option. I’m not convinced that Waino is the answer there and no way should it be Weaver.

    #69011
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    If we’re set with Mikolas-Flaherty-Gomber-Gant, that leaves Poncedeleon or Wainwright and Weaver#7?

    Wainwright will get another chance but I think he’ll have to show more. Poncedeleon is a fairly good option and has moved ahead of Weaver.

    #69012
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    The opening day rotation at Memphis was Gant-Hudson-Gomber-Flaherty-Poncedeleon. The Memphis Mob has taken over in St Louis…. who would have guessed? With Helsley making only 5 starts at Memphis in mid-season and injured the rest of the year, this wave of starters has been completed. The next wave doesn’t appear to be as successful.

    Memphis is now using Lyons-Woodford-Ellis-Herget-Warner and they would be available when the Redbirds finish up their Championship round, but I doubt very much that any are placed on the 40-man roster to join the Cards.

    On the horizon, I would like to see CMart closing next season and Hudson added to the rotation. As far as prospects go Helsley and Woodford will start ’19 at AAA with Kruczynski, Meismer and Shew candidates to join them. The mix of the present Memphis starters will fill out their rotation.

    Sorry if I got off topic but I like to look to the future and hope for the best.

    #69014
    stlcard25
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    On the horizon, I would like to see CMart closing next season and Hudson added to the rotation.

    Maybe Martinez would be fine as a closer but the best of the best closers are worth 3 wins a year. Martinez has been worth 3-5 every year of his career as a starter. I don’t see why you’d give that up over 180-200 innings to go with a rookie. I’d put every other starter in the bullpen besides Mikolas before I put Martinez there.

    #69015
    BlackHillsCard
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    Only talking about 2018 my rotation would be this:

    Flaherty
    Mikolas
    Gant
    Gomber
    Ross

    #69016
    PugsleyAddams
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    Would prefer to keep “The Bulldog” penned up for the remainder of this year, but long term, I believe Ponce is better suited in the rotation. I think the wild card for us…..I know what you’re thinking…no it’s not Ross….I think the hurler who is really going to excel down the stretch and hopefully well into the waning days of October, is going to be a young hurler who I have been riding all year due to his pitch inefficiency…Weaver. I just have a gut feeling that it has all now started to come together for Weaver…just give him another shot!

    #69022
    gscottar
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    Sorry Pugs but DreamWeava gives me nightmares!

    #69026
    mudville
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    I don’t think Weaver is ever going to be really dependable until he learns to pitch down in the zone. What I’m saying is he needs to be Duncanized by Dave Duncan, or a Dave Duncan mentor. Weaver’s great strength is his control, not the movement of his pitches. At least, that’s my humble opinion.

    I’m fine with Ross or Ponce for the fifth starter, but I’d probably go with Ross because of his experience.

    #69032
    PugsleyAddams
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    I hear you, GScott & Mudville, Weaver’s 2018 campaign warrants your caution. However, I think the worm has turned and he’ll be lights out the rest of the way. We’ll see….

    #69037
    Cardinals27
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    Flaherty/MIkolas/Poncedeleon/Gant/Gomber are my 5. Weaver, Ross, or Wainright can give a couple innings if needed. I just don’t want us getting into 4-0 holes again.

    #69085
    mudville
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    Love that optimism, Pugs. Hope you’re right.

    #69122
    MagnoliaCardFan
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    Good topic UConn.

    My sentiments run with Nyqui–Memphis had a pitching staff that comes along, maybe, once in a generation/lifetime. And now they’re shooling MLB. Has me feeling a return to the WS is possible this year.

    Pugs–your love for the underdog and underappreciated has served you/us well. But Weaver? IMO, he’s never been very effective after August. Our organizational love for FSU players in the first round of the draft got him a status that I don’t feel he’s earned. I’ll be surprised if he’s with us come spring training.

    Ponce is my choice as the 5th starter, replacing the Card that he most closely resembles (IMO), Waino. I love his toughness and grit. He’s made/wired for starting elimination games. Waino would be my 2nd choice citing experience and having the freshest arm on the staff.

    #69123
    gscottar
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    Ricky Horton had some interesting comments about Weaver last night on the broadcast. He basically said that Weaver’s problem was that he was a two pitch pitcher. All he has is a fastball and a change up. He rarely throws a curve ball and when he does it gets crushed which was evident last night.

    I’m thinking that Weaver starts next season in Memphis.

    #69133
    RememberDiz
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    Wainwright and Weaver aren’t pitching well. Flaherty, Gant, Gomber, Poncedeleon, and Mikolas are. Martinez seems better in relief where he can go all out for twenty pitches. Hicks is a bit hit and miss, but he is 22.

    I think the only time I would have Wainwright and Weaver on the field is if we get an early 5-0 deficit.

    #69182
    jj-cf-stl
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    Ponce as my SP5, but my guess is the org goes w/Wainwright until he pitches himself out of the rotation.

    Weaver was struggling to locate what were still good pitches.

    Ross is smoke and mirrors, afraid of the strike zone. He needs batters to chase out of the zone. His. 200 BAbip allowed is making him bearable but even then the outs are often LOUD.

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