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1964:
Cubs lose! Cubs lose!
Someone didn’t get the message that the Cubs don’t lose in Wrigley.
How did this happen?
You guessed it… da Cubs ain’t dat good.
Evidence of that… if someone told you on Memorial Day that the Cards after such a bad month would be leading the pack by 2.5 on August 25th, you’d have to have thought that the Cards went on a tear… not really.
Do we have a magic number yet?
Mets steaming made that the Braves swept them! DeGrom and Syndergaard await the Cubbies.
I finally had to give it up at 9-3 and hit the sack. The rain delay pushed this game way, way past my bed time. Glad to see we held on and added a couple more. To increase the joy, the Cubs lost. The feeling is creeping up slowly that it’s not impossible we could actually win this thing (Central Division).
I’m with Pugsley on this Edman kid. He’s a real joy to watch and injects excitement into our game, along with Flaherty and Hudson. I know some out there are just waiting for him to “overexpose,” whatever that means, but I’m seeing nothing but good right now and I’m enjoying it.
CIF wrote:
<I’m with Pugsley on this Edman kid. He’s a real joy to watch and injects excitement into our game, along with Flaherty and Hudson. >I’ll join that club too. Plus he doesn’t wear an Osama Bin Laden beard.
I’m also a fan of Edman. Depending on how the end of the season goes, he could allow us to explore moving Wong for pitching up some kind of upgrade.
BTW, CiF, “overexposed” means that the league figures out and adjusts to a player, often after their first taste of the big leagues, forcing them to adjust to keep up. It’s the beginning of the ballet of adjustments that pitchers and batters go through in their careers and often comes with a precipitous drop in production from the player. Sometimes it can be a description of a player who’s probably a bench player who gets more playing time than they should and their results suffer. It’s not permanent in some cases but if timed wrong can be a real killer for a team.
STL25 wrote:
<I’m also a fan of Edman. Depending on how the end of the season goes, he could allow us to explore moving Wong for pitching up some kind of upgrade. >I really cannot understand how we keep hearing this continual “…..move Wong….” chant. We have a PROVEN, Probable Gold Glove winning shortstop, who has turned his offensive game into something positive and who, after several years of development, has probably reached the point where we want our shortstop to be………….BUT………….some think he is worth money (sure he is) and must be moved to allow a possible cheaper version to replace him so we can spend a bazillion bucks on some prominent name pitcher who flubs his dub when he becomes a Cardinal. Oh well. What am I missing here. Are we supposed to stay in a perpetual state of development by trading off the winners and hiring a bunch of ‘maybes’? No arrows intended at anybody in particular but I just cannot understand why we want to get rid of the good to acquire a risky supposed-to-be better.
It’s pretty simple to me. Wong is owed a good chunk of change in the next two years. In a vacuum, I’m fine with keeping him and adding payroll via FA acquisition but Dewitt isn’t likely to be. Edman at 2B probably is a slight downgrade from Wong but not much. So a big cost savings and slightly less production allows…
A big upgrade to the shoddy rotation. For whatever reason, you seem to laugh at the idea that we could be in a rotation bind next year, At this point we have Wacha likely gone and Waino an unknown. The SP prospect pipeline is shaky at best. So that’s Flaherty, Hudson and Mikolas for sure and then…? Wong (or the money saved from Wong) could allow for a nice upgrade there, which is very needed. So the upside is a big uptick in production from the rotation.
Slightly worse lineup + much better rotation= ????
Overall it looks positive to me. I’m not saying I want Wong to go, but it could at least be explored. He’s probably the best trade chip we currently have that wouldn’t leave a gaping hole in the team if he were to go.
I would not be so quick to trade Wong. Agree that the club has potential gaps in the 2020 rotation and he is owed a lot. However, a few things for the Front Office to consider before trading Wong:
– Do you sign Ozuna? … arguably the best bat in the starting line up this season
– Is Bader’s 2019 offensive performance an aberration or what the team can expect in the future?
– If you sign Ozuna and believe in Bader, can you afford to trade one or two of the young outfielders? Will the 40-man roster be over-weighted with outfield talent?
– Do you believe that Carps 2019 performance was an aberration or what the team can expect in the future?I’ll join that club too. Plus he doesn’t wear an Osama Bin Laden beard.
Thankfully Obama got rid of Osama.
Everyone in Cardinal Land should be happy today. I know I am. Not in my wildest dreams did I think the Cubs would get swept at home while we swept the Rockies. Wow! Way to go Nats! Everyone put Davy Martinez on your Christmas Card list this year. Now let’s go Mets!
Hopefully we won’t stub our toe at Miller Park. The Brew Crew are 4 games out, feeling desperate, and will be feisty. We need to finish them off.
This discussion about Wong is an interesting one. Could we trade him in the offseason for a rotation upgrade? Perhaps. It is worth thinking about but my first thought would be don’t do it. I think he is the best 2B in the league. I would rather see him play everyday and let Carp and Edman share time at 3B.
Let Ozuna walk, take the comp pick, and use Ozuna’s money to sign a FA starter. Hamels? Keuchel? We then have about 37 internal OF options to choose from to take over for Ozuna.
I always see on here how “Wong is owed a lot” and am baffled by that statement from a group that knows their baseball. Even if his value goes back to 2018 level, he still has a tremendous positive value, look at the numbers below assuming an $8M per WAR valuation.
2018 – 3.5 BR WAR – 4M – Surplus $24M
2019 – 3.8 BR WAR – 6.5M – Surplus $24.4M (with a month left)
2020 – 3.5 WAR(est) – 10.25M – Surplus $17.75M
2021 – 3.5 WAR(est) – 12.5M – Surplus $15.5MThe projections for 20 and 21 might be a little low, but in all likely hood will average out to something around that going into his age 29 and 30 seasons.
The point is, a gold glover caliber guy up the middle with $33.25M in projected surplus over the next two years, with potential for upside on top of that, is not overpaid in anyway shape or form.
stlCard25: Thanks for the explanation. I’m just happy he hasn’t exposed himself yet. On the other hand I assume there are also young players who are just plain good from the get-go and who understand the need to keep up with the opposition as it evolves to overcome their talents. Nearly all players have their ups and downs (need I cite any current examples?) and some deal with it better and more quickly than others.
While I’m seeking and appreciating answers: As someone who has lived abroad for a long time and for some years had little contact with baseball, when did they start tossing out the ball every time it touches the ground? I remember when the ump used to examine balls in the dirt and if it was just a smudge throw it back to the pitcher. Seems silly and a needless expense to pitch a ball once then toss it (as is having half a dozen different uniforms instead of just the good old white and gray).
Hello CIF. Don’t worry about the expense of those balls. I had the same concern but the ones that go to fans on fouls or toss in are well worth the expense. Many that are thrown out are sent to the ‘authenticator’ who documents them for what they are ‘foul ball’ or something like that. I am not sure how specific he gets but those game used balls are sold in the Cards store as I understand it. Anybody here know the procedure.
I always see on here how “Wong is owed a lot” and am baffled by that statement from a group that knows their baseball. Even if his value goes back to 2018 level, he still has a tremendous positive value, look at the numbers below assuming an $8M per WAR valuation.
2018 – 3.5 BR WAR – 4M – Surplus $24M
2019 – 3.8 BR WAR – 6.5M – Surplus $24.4M (with a month left)
2020 – 3.5 WAR(est) – 10.25M – Surplus $17.75M
2021 – 3.5 WAR(est) – 12.5M – Surplus $15.5MThe projections for 20 and 21 might be a little low, but in all likely hood will average out to something around that going into his age 29 and 30 seasons.
The point is, a gold glover caliber guy up the middle with $33.25M in projected surplus over the next two years, with potential for upside on top of that, is not overpaid in anyway shape or form.
I didn’t say he was overpaid. In fact, I said that he was the best trade chip we have on the active roster of those we realistically might trade. He is paid considerably more than Tommy Edman who will be making the minimum the next two years. Edman has been worth between 0.9 (Fangraphs) and 1.5 (BBR) WAR in aboht 200 plate appearances, or 2.7-4.5 WAR in a full season of play. At $1.1 Million of salary and using his current low total as a projection, that’s $42.1 million in potential value. Of course no one would value Edman like that in a trade, but they might value Wong like that.
So if you could get close to the same value for cheap while getting something useful back (either a pitcher or prospects and $$ flexibility) for Wong, why not explore it?
You are assuming that Edman could keep up what he has been doing, and I don’t see it the more he gets seen the more he will get figured out…not sure why you want to make a position weaker just to save a few bucks.
You are assuming that Edman could keep up what he has been doing, and I don’t see it the more he gets seen the more he will get figured out…not sure why you want to make a position weaker just to save a few bucks.
The above projection also assumes Wong keeps up his play. It’s more likely, but it’s just as likely that Edman’s bat ticks up a notch (he was above average at every stop in the minors) and he beats the 2.7 WAR. It’s all in the relative risk. If Wong can be a piece in a trade for a player like Lindor, Kluber, Betts or some above average starting pitcher, would that upgrade the team overall? I’m not saying that Wong should go or that the Cards would trade for any of those players…only that he’s a good chip at a position that we can probably not lose much at if he’s gone, and can gain useful players or prospects and $$ to spend.
Put it this way: would you rather lose Gorman, Carlson or Wong in a trade? Because those are about the only three I could see us moving that would bring in elite talent. Carp or Fowler free up more room to spend, but would be give aways at best. Flaherty or Dejong would be bigger trade chips, but they’re too vital to the team now to trade. So that leaves players like Wong, Hudson, Hicks (if he wasn’t hurt), and maybe Cmart in that sweet spot of value on the trade market if that’s the route the team wants to go. I don’t see any of the pitchers except maybe Cmart being moved, so that leaves Wong.
I don’t want to lose any of Gorman, Carlson, Wong, Flaherty, Hudson, or DeJong, which is why we could consider the FA route. Use the Ozuna money on an upgrade elsewhere.
<Use the Ozuna money on an upgrade elsewhere.>
I frankly hope there is no Ozuna money and that he is resigned. If necessary I could see ONeil or Thomas traded if needed for a blue chip player. But Ozuna is another one of those “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.” He has taken two years to flourish as a Cardinal. No need to snuff him out now. How many teams are loaded with 5 high quality SPs. The Cards have two for sure and the probability of at least two more on board plus a couple still in the minors.
I frankly hope there is no Ozuna money and that he is resigned.
I can understand that argument with the way he is raking right now. But will he continue to rake once he has the big contract secured away? That same level of hunger may not burn next year.
I think we have much more quality OF depth than we do rotation depth which is why I would utilize our capital (cash or trade) on the rotation.
Also, the Cardinals have a history of doing quite well with comp picks.
gscott, why is it that the Cardinals have to be concerned about Ozuna not performing once he signs a new contract but they don’t have to worry about someone else from another organization that they sign? That doesn’t make sense to me.
The only areas that I could see the Cardinals upgrade would be 3B, SP and RP. The 3B upgrade could come from signing or acquiring a SS and moving DeJong to 3B. As far as free agents go, that would mean: Bogaerts, Gregorius, Donaldson, Rendon, Bumgarner, Cole and maybe a few others. Are the Cardinals really going to be in on most of the them? I would love to sign Cole but I really don’t expect it to happen.
I would think the best way to upgrade would be to re-sign Ozuna and make a trade for a SP. We should have enough talent to acquire a good SP. We have $27.25 million to $45.5 million (not counting raises) coming off the books after the 2020 season and another $35 million after the 2021 season. If the front office is creative, they could fit Ozuna’s salary into the total salary.
gscott, why is it that the Cardinals have to be concerned about Ozuna not performing once he signs a new contract but they don’t have to worry about someone else from another organization that they sign? That doesn’t make sense to me.
I don’t have firsthand knowledge but I have read where some in the front office were not thrilled with the way he handled his off season last winter. Perhaps that level of trust just isn’t there.
So your original statement is based solely on what you have read that some were not thrilled with his off season last winter?
So your original statement is based solely on what you have read that some were not thrilled with his off season last winter?
There have been numerous reporters comment on this, not just one. I have yet to find one P-D reporter, or beat writer, or any media person that follows the Cardinals state they think Ozuna will be back. Some suggest he might or should but none have stated they think he will and they have knowledge that we don’t have. I include Brian in this category also as I believe he has stated that he doesn’t think Ozuna will be back either.
Now I suppose Ozuna has between now and the end of the season to change this mindset but I am not making this up out of thin air.
I have never said that Ozuna might be back or should be back based on comments from the front office. Also, I am not questioning your source. I really don’t care if there are a hundred sources that say he won’t be back. It is only my opinion that they should re-sign him.
I am trying to understand why the Cardinals should be worried about Ozuna not having the same level of hunger burning. If I read between the lines correctly, it sounds like you are saying his production will go down but any free agent we sign should still produce the same as previous.
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