Potential Future Lineup

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  • #189200
    bccran
    Participant

    Edman SS
    Winn CF
    Goldschmidt 1B
    Arenado 3B
    Gorman 2B
    Walker LF
    Yepez/Burleson DH platoon
    Carlson RF
    Herrera C

    Have the Cardinals ever had a lineup potentially as powerful and exciting as this?

    #189202
    CardsFanInChiTown
    Participant

    Free

    Doesn’t look to bad to me BC…. Where is my favorite player Donovan at though?

    If Nunez hits close to like he is in June, he will force his way into the conversation as well.

    #189205
    bccran
    Participant

    Donovan is the super sub who can relieve at multiple positions.

    #189206
    Cards667
    Participant

    Free

    Don’t get to far ahead of yourself. Things have a way of working themselves out, and way more prospects flame out than make it. Players age, get hurt and aren’t the same. The offense now is pretty darn good, just hope the pitching is helped. And you’ve got 2 guys in positions they’ve yet to play an inning at.

    #189212
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    If it were up to me Donovan is the everyday 2B. Gorman and Yepez can share DH duties while Burleson would be in RF. I am not sold on Carlson long term.

    #189228
    kscardfan
    Participant

    Free

    Edman LF
    Winn SS
    Carlson CF
    Goldschmidt 1B
    Arenado 3B
    Gorman 2B
    Walker/ Edman / Donovan LF- DH
    Herrera C
    O’Neill or Benintendi RF

    With the stinking DH and versatility of Edman and Donovan a gajillion options.
    Gorman in 2-3 years going to third and Arenado to DH. Walker replacing Goldy when the time comes.
    Also I have been on the Contreras bandwagon for two years. The perfect replacement for Yadi.

    #189256
    Cards667
    Participant

    Free

    Contreras is not good defensively though.
    Carlson is 23 and I’ll take him any day over O’Neill, and especially in 3 years when Carlson will be 26 and O’Neill 30. People turning on Carlson quickly reminds me how fast everyone turned on Drew and then he turned into the player a lot of people wanted, but I won’t complain about the trade that brought Wainwright.
    Edman needs to stay in the IF.
    2023
    1. Edman SS
    2. Donovan LF/UT
    3. Goldschmidt 1B
    4. Arenado 3B
    5. Gorman 2B
    6. Carlson RF
    7. Burleson/Yepez DH/LF
    8. Knizner/Herrera C
    9. Bader CF
    ? IF, ? Utility, Burleson/Yepez, Knizner/Herrera
    Gone: Pujols (retire), Molina (retire), Sosa (trade), O’Neill (trade), Dickerson (FA), DeJong (trade), Nootbaar (trade)
    2024
    ???- how soon does Walker start entering the question of when he’s ready and when does he start play LF/RF to find him a position?

    2024
    1. Edman SS
    2.
    3. Goldschmidt 1B – last year on deal
    4. Arenado 3B
    5. Gorman 2B
    6. Carlson RF
    7.
    8. Knizner/Herrera C
    9.
    ? – decision will have to be made on Bader
    ? – is Winn ready? Has he moved to CF? Leave him at SS, Edman position??
    ? – Where’s Walker? What position is he able to play?
    ? – How are Burleson, Yepez, Donovan still playing and factors in to the future?

    Things have a way of working themselves out and I’m happy with a lot of the youth they have right now, and hope they don’t sacrifice to much of it to add pitching.

    #189347
    858booyah
    Participant

    Free

    It won’t matter how potent it could potentially be if that idiot bowtie keeps signing chumps for the pen and Marmol keeps trotting them out there to fail.

    #189348
    kscardfan
    Participant

    Free

    It won’t matter how potent it could potentially be if that idiot bowtie keeps signing chumps for the pen and Marmol keeps trotting them out there to fail.

    Agree totally with this.

    #189355
    Bob Reed
    Participant

    Free

    “If it were up to me Donovan is the everyday 2B. Gorman and Yepez can share DH duties….”

    There’s two websites that quantify minor league defensive value (Baseball Prospectus and Clay Davenport) and if we combine their numbers we should get at the very least a reasonable estimate of each player’s glovework to this point in their careers.

    Gorman’s defense — again, averaging the only two public graders — has been excellent for his career, and dandy at the keystone. He doesn’t look like a traditional middle infielder, but that’s what the numbers say. On the other hand, Brendan’s great at the plate but not so hot with the glove.

    Specifically, per 150 games Nolan Gorman has been 12 runs better than Brendan Donovan according to Clay Davenport’s site, and a whopping 18 runs better per Prospectus. That’s good enough for me to keep Nolan at second base until further notice, and keep Donovan a supersub who takes great at-bats while mostly filling in where he does the least harm with his glove.

    As we saw with the 2021 Redbirds, a team can really get burned when their bench is bad. So there’s no harm having guys like Burly or Donovan contributing off the bench — even if they could start for 12-15 other teams.

    “Edman SS, Winn CF, Goldy 1B, Arenado 3B, Gorman 2B, Walker LF, Yepez/Burly DH, Carlson RF, Herrera C
    Have the Cardinals ever had a lineup potentially as powerful and exciting as this?”

    Maybe not, cranny. Taking into consideration just the past 40-50 years, the “MV3” teams were top-heavy in their production. But star-tilted or not, they did lead the N.L. in OPS for the four-year stretch of 2002-5. But your assemblage would be more dynamic in the field and on the bases, not much doubt of that.

    The sole cause for caution might be the limited overlap of excellence. Winn and Walker could both be future Hall Of Famers, but still not be stars until 2024 or 2025, when Goldy is gone and Arenado is old.

    #189358
    1982 willie
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I’m not sold on a lot of these guys. Gorman’s just a traditional bopper. Strikes out a lot. Yepez is average. Lots of those guys have only played in minors so to me they are still at zero. I like Donovan more than those guys tight now though I still consider him suspect. The defense on this lineup pans out as average. So no I’m not too impressed with that lineup.

    #189363
    bccran
    Participant

    Good point on overlap of excellence, Bob. But it seems like there will be an excellent core of position players for years to come.

    #189375
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    My reasoning on Donovan being at 2B was because I think he should be in the lineup everyday. Until proven otherwise at the MLB level I like his bat better than Gorman’s. Donovan may be our Zobrist guy though. As long as he gets to hit everyday I am fine with that.

    #189383
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Donovan reminds me of Edman, and Edman had the bat knocked out of his hands for several periods in his career thus far because the power isn’t very good. I’d suspect that Donovan will be similar. In not sure if he’s a must play for any long term, but he could be a good enough bench bat to let the Cards move Edman after this year or ’23.

    #189401
    Bob Reed
    Participant

    Free

    “Edman SS, Winn CF, Goldy 1B, Arenado 3B, Gorman 2B, Walker LF, Yepez/Burly DH, Carlson RF, Herrera C”

    “The defense on this lineup pans out as average. So no, I’m not too impressed with that lineup.”

    I’m not sure how you’ve reached that conclusion, Willie, regarding their glovework. Walker and Winn are unknowns as outfielders, to be sure. But Walker runs well and Winn is a burner with a bazooka arm. Given their physical gifts and work ethics, I think for now it’s safe to assume they’ll be at least competent covering the green baize.

    With Yepez and Burleson sharing the designated bopper role, I don’t see any below average defenders (save for Herrera, perhaps) and there’s multiple legitimate Gold Glovers. Looks like a good-to-very-good defense from where I’m sitting.

    #189403
    bccran
    Participant

    A good blend of offense and defense.

    What players at the major and minor league levels are tradable pieces right now to beef up the rotation, that wouldn’t hurt the above developing lineup?

    Cardinals – Bader, O’Neill, Nootbaar, Knizner, Sosa, Thompson.

    Minors – Thomas, Rondon, Gomez, Baker, Capel, Hurst, Pages, Antico, Baez (ouch).

    #189404
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    O’Neill would be a major sell low guy. There’s no way I’m giving up on him yet, no matter how streaky he may be. A gold glove burner with 40 HR power is insanely valuable.

    The correct answer for most tradeable assets is (right now) Knizner, Sosa, and (after this year) Yepez/Burleson, Bader and Edman. O’Neill could be next year if he’s not turned it around.

    #189405
    1982 willie
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Well Bob Reed, like I said until I see these guys in the majors, I grade them at zero. Speed and strong arms doesn’t mean that much. Lots of guys have had those abilities and didn’t translate to great defense. I already can see Gorman is below average at second. He’s serviceable and maybe his offense will make up for it but we will see. Far as those bopper guys, I’m always cautious of guys whose normal or natural position is first or third base unless they are gold glove types so you see my thinking. Since minor league games aren’t on tv I don’t have any visuals to verify anything and I don’t trust numbers. Time will tell, maybe this is a good lineup. I just have to see first before I agree

    #189461
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    Cards667 said

    Don’t get to far ahead of yourself. Things have a way of working themselves out, and way more prospects flame out than make it. Players age, get hurt and aren’t the same. The offense now is pretty darn good, just hope the pitching is helped. And you’ve got 2 guys in positions they’ve yet to play an inning at.

    This is the most sensible way to approach this topic.

    It will be fun to check back here about a year from now to see who has the best magic-8 ball.

    #189614
    Bob Reed
    Participant

    Free

    Hope you don’t mind my usurping your idea, cranny, but I thought I’d jump ahead a bit to the post-Goldschmidt 2025 campaign. My lineup, with Opening Day ages:

    Edman SS, age 29
    Winn CF, 23
    Gorman 2B, 24
    Arenado 3B, 33
    Carlson RF, 26
    Walker LF, 22
    Yepez DH, 27
    Nunez/Burleson 1B, 24/26
    Herrera C, 24

    Playing the optimist, there could be half a dozen #3 type hitters in that lineup. And by “#3 type hitter” I mean a good #3, a better-than-average #3, i.e., an OPS of 125 or better. (MLB average for the 3-hole is 116 this year and 121 last season.) I know. But a man can dream, can he not?

    #189671
    bccran
    Participant

    Good lineup, Bob. If Walker’s K rate turns out to be much lower than Gorman’s, maybe move Walker to 3rd in the lineup and put Gorman behind Arenado?

    #189674
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    And that lineup doesn’t even include Donovan who should be playing at least five days a week.

    I also wonder if Moises Gomez has a future in St. Louis. He has a very high K rate but it is difficult to ignore his power numbers this year. If he puts up big numbers in Memphis he might be a good trade candidate for us.

    #189676
    bccran
    Participant

    Good idea. I’d trade Gomez before I’d trade Burleson.

    #189704
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    You would also get a lot less for him.

    #189713
    bccran
    Participant

    Depends on whom you want to keep and whom you want to give up.

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