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Lots of depth.
Flaherty
Mikolas
Montgomery
Matz
Wainwright
Hudson
Pallante
Liberatore
Woodford
Thompson
Thomas
Parsons
Graceffo
McGreeveyProbably beats starting Hicks, Naughton, and Oviedo in some games last year and still winning 93 games.
Oliver,
That seems shortsighted. There are no absolutes. Quantity at times is certainly also greater than quality. It just depends on the situation. The Cardinals vast amount of “quantity“ this year helps them not fall far when an injury occurs. And because so much of that quantity is developing talent, it gives some future possibility for someone or someones to be “quality”. Having 5 pitchers that are “quality” and no “quantity” behind them runs a huge risk with injury. Neither is better. Ideally, we’d have both. But we don’t. We have 2 good pitchers in Mikolas and Montgomery who would start for pretty much any team in baseball. Not elite, but definitely reliably good. After that, we have 4 pitchers where we basically are hoping for the best with. Then we have close to ten others who aren’t far behind those 4. Is that a perfect scenario or great plan? No. One elite starter would really, really help assuming they stay healthy. And I wish we had gotten one instead of spending so much on Contreras. So I get the argument. We would definitely be a better team with better pitchers. But I don’t think that means we’re not going to the World Series. This team has a real definite chance. It’s the best Cardinal team I’ve seen in quite some time. But I admit that my faith may be misplaced.
Boy the company line is just non-stop. Mo said this. Bill said this. Zero original thought leads to a sheep mentality.
Not a company line. Just rational explanations. Funny how fans who defend the home team always seem to be the ones called out.
If Billy Jr. or Johnny said it, it must be true. And in the same vein, you’ll never steal a sign from either one of them…
Don’t get personal, jj. Be nice.
On that list of pitchers, I count 8 that were 1st round draft picks. That seems like quality.
Prospects become quality when they have a history of sustained success at the MLB level regardless of where they were drafted. Having first rounders is great but let’s see them become the real deal. Wacha and Miller were first rounders also.
I’m not at all sure, but by my count, four of them included on the list of fourteen have never recorded an out in the Big Leagues. And not that it’s a big deal, but I don’t know how I could incude those four under the heading of depth.
1td, then consider that 8 of the 14 have 10 or less starts in the majors. That may be depth but it is not proven, quality depth.
8 of the 14 have 10 or less starts in the majors
Here is what the six experienced guys did last year
Flaherty 2-1 4.25
Mikolas 12-13 3.29
Montgomery 9-6 3.48
Matz 5-3 5.25
Wainwright 11-12 3.71
Hudson 8-7 4.4547-42 is the combined record, which comes to a .528 winning percentage, which corresponds to an 85 win season. Based upon that bit of reality, I don’t think we should worry if the inexperienced guys get some starts.
No one is QUALITY until they excel at the major league level. Let’s let the chips fall and that will make someone’s argument but not everyone’s.
I certainly wasn’t looking for a loophole in the terminology. I simply wasn’t certain if the conversation was in reference to depth within the entire organization, or depth for what may be projected to be included on the Big League roster once the season gets underway. At any rate, I’d have to say that only the first six names certainly qualify for assured depth if we’re talking about the rotation. I’d view both Pallante and Woodford as a viable option with Thompson and certainly Liberatore carrying with them a significant amount of uncertainty and even consternation to the extent of whistling in the dark. And the last four names may not even make it as far North as St. Louis. What I’d be quick to suggest is to hope none of the first six scatters an arm in ST…
Well, bling, if you want to look at it that way, the combined record of Helsley, Cabrera, Oviedo, Stratton, VerHagen and Whitley was 25-5. I am not sure the W-L record is a good way to look at it.
If you want to make the point that the first six didn’t perform all that well, that reinforces the point that we need an ace. I don’t know how giving the other 8 pitchers some starts helps provide solid, quality starting depth.
I’d say W/L record is certainly a portion on the formula used to measure a SP’er, but to me, ERA will always be the crux of the bisquit so to speak when evaluating a ballclub’s pitching strength or weakness. You can’t really argue against the concept of limiting the earned run total of the opposition. The goal of the entire game is obviously to score more runs than your opponent. The Cardinals placed 10th in the entire Big Leagues in team ERA last season. That’s pretty good, but could be better. Of the top 10 teams in ERA last season, all of them, with the exception of CA, qualified for post-season play.
I can’t tell you how many times the analytics wonks have told me that wins doesn’t matter. I just act natural, as though there was nothing wrong with them.
So 8 of the 2022 playoff teams had a better ERA than the Cardinals and 3 had worse.
Dodgers – 2.80 (2.75)
Astros – 2.90 (2.95)
Yankees – 3.30 (3.51)
Rays – 3.41 (3.45)
Guardians – 3.46 (3.73)
Braves – 3.46 (3.72)
Mets – 3.57 (3.61)
Mariners – 3.59 (3.75)
Cardinals – 3.79 (3.89)
Padres – 3.81 (3.80)
Jays – 3.87 (3.98)
Phillies – 3.97 (3.80)(Starting pitcher ERA is in parenthesis, per Baseball Reference)
Cardinal pitching benefits from outstanding Team D, and a pitcher friendly home park, which is why their era was a full run more on the road last season.
So, who among them has produced at the major league level?
Waino
Mikolas
Montgomery
Matz
Flaherty
Hudson
Pallante
Thompson
WoodfordI may have a false perception, but I’ve never been able to entirely accept that the current Cardinal venue was so pitcher friendly. My impression is that it plays either neutral or a little slanted towards the hitters. Now, that impression may very well be a false one created by the experience of attending so many games at Busch Memorial Stadium. I’m not sure if a baseball ever left the playing field in that venue unless a pitch was entirely destroyed. Nothing left that ballpark on a domestic flight. In addition to the power alleys measuring up at 386 ft. foul territory was very expansive and the outfield area took on the look of the Russian steppes. I can’t recall any Redbird hitters who were a consistent threat to tater-up in that ballpark and the only visiting players I remember to have somewhat mastered that venue were Schmidt, Stargell and D. Parker. In any case, the only current venue in MLB that even comes close to being as pitcher friendly is Dodger Stadium. I’d have to say that almost all of the ballparks that have been built in the past 25 years or so were put together with hitters as a portion of the planning and design firms.
Well bc, all nine of them have, but only the first 6 have well over 100 innings of work in the Big Leagues. Pallante’s been around for one nice season, with Woodford a little over 100 IP’ed over the course of three years and Thompson has a total that’s a shade shy of 35 innings of work in his Big League career. Of those three, I’d say Pallante is the only guy I’d feel a bit comfortable with as someone who provides a bit of depth to the rotation.
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