- This topic has 53 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 5 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
This is a general comment I have made every time when revisionist historians blast the manager and front office for not playing/demoting Pham in 2016/2017.
One has to produce to stay in the majors – especially a guy with a very limited track record. Whatever the reasons, Pham was awful with St. Louis in 2016 and equally terrible in spring training 2017. Go check the numbers if you disagree. Jose Martinez beat him out of a roster spot last spring – and it wasn’t even close.
It is great that Pham went to Memphis to open last season, played well and earned his way back up. And it was even better that he produced when there. In my book, that is how it is supposed to work.
Agreed. His 2016 numbers didn’t prove he was better than Piscotty or Grichuk and his 2017 spring training was a full blown disaster.
This is one of those situations where if he played another professional sport, he would be fined something like $50,000 from the team and they would move on until the next time he vented publicly, at which time he would be fined, suspended and then traded.
Being from Arkansas I can say that Pham’s attitude and comments remind me a lot of Nolan Richardson. While Nolan had great teams here and won a national title his tenure did not end well because of the chip on his shoulder. Now his relationship with the school and state has been somewhat repaired but I wonder if Pham will meet the same fate.
I respectfully disagree on Pham and 2016. I remember that time well, and on the forum kept questioning why Pham was not given more playing time when Moss was tanking in August.
Sometimes you have to look at the player, and see beyond the numbers. Watching Pham in ’15, you could see he was a talent; very athletic, great speed and power, good arm. When you have a guy like that, you play him.
Looking at the 2016 numbers, Moss had a .784 OPS and a 106 OPS+. Pham, in what is supposedly a horrible season, finished at .764 and 103. He only played about a third of the time as Moss. There simply was no compelling reason to continue to play Moss over Pham the last six weeks or so of 2016, especially against left-hand pitching.
Now earlier in his career, Pham was a good prospect but had the injury bug. I am not sure how much opportunity was missed then. But he definitely was not treated right in ’16 in my opinion. Both he and Kolten Wong could have been utilized better. Not one of Matheny’s better years in terms of handling younger players.
Obviously I would rather see Pham take the high road, and speak intelligently about his frustrations rather than throw a consistent barrage of f-bombs out. The “street talk” style reflects a lack of character, which I don’t think is truly how Tommy is, but obviously do not know for sure. But the club’s management needs to see the big picture, and know that they have a special player who is coming into his own right now. Do not give him away because he vented. Keep him in the lineup day after day, and lets see where we are this off season.
The question is whether the Cards will have a closed door conversation with him and ask him to perhaps temper his remarks. Especially to watch his consistent f bomb language in a public interview, which doesn’t reflect well on the organization. And if they have that meeting, how he reacts.
I will let the numbers make the case.
Pham’s 2016 slash line against LHP: .206/.306/.429/.734. K rate = 41.7%
Pham’s 2016 second half: .219/.321/.421/.742. K rate = 40.5%The question is whether the Cards will have a closed door conversation with him and ask him to perhaps temper his remarks. Especially to watch his consistent f bomb language in a public interview, which doesn’t reflect well on the organization. And if they have that meeting, how he reacts.
You hit the nail on the head here. I suspect there will be a meeting such as you described. While Pham may temporarily restrain himself it is probably just a matter of time before he explodes again. Eventually this won’t end well.
I would also add that I think the issue of clubhouse chemistry is worth keeping an eye on here. I know that most stat heads like Brian Kenny believe that clubhouse chemistry is irrelevant because it can’t be quantified and anything that can’t be quantified has to be irrelevant.
I disagree. While I acknowledge that on the field performance and winning matter most I think clubhouse chemistry can impact on the field performance and winning. I hope Pham doesn’t turn into a clubhouse cancer.
I feel like the main beef is throwing his fellow teammates under the bus. It’s one thing to disagree with how a manager or organization treats you (although I don’t think the Cardinals did anything devious or underhanded with him) but to blast his fellow players seems to show a lack of character.
I would still maintain that his anger will one day be his (professional and possibly personal) demise unless he gets it under control. For his sake, I hope he does. He is a good ballplayer but that only lasts so long in one’s life.
I would think that the reactions from management will be different privately than the public response.Same with the other players.Throwing teammates under the bus just isn
t something that makes for a happy productive team.Management has to be angry because they might feel that they stuck with this guy for many years thru bad seasons,injuries etc; and now he is like the drunk uncle at the family picnic who cant help himself stop being a ass***e.This also makes Pham look like a “me’ guy first .Like others have said i just dont see this ending up well for Pham.Since he doesnt know how or when to filter his comments i wonder when the next verbal blast pops up.Keep it up Pham because i am one fan who hopes you get traded soon.Not to beat this horse, but since Moss keeps coming up, here is my take on him.
In July 2016, Moss missed most of the month. In August, he was on fire, with eight home runs and 21 RBI in 25 starts/27 games. So he came into September with momentum. In fact, the talk at the time was whether the Cards would extend his contract for another year. St. Louis was in the final month fight for a playoff berth so Matheny kept playing Moss – and he had a historically bad month (9-for-91, .099).
However, Pham had done nothing to warrant playing in Moss’ place (see Pham’s 2H overall and vs. LHP stats above). Since it was the final month of the season when rosters expand, the Cards had lots of other OF options, with seven of them on the active roster – Holliday, Piscotty, Pham, Moss, Martinez, Hazelbaker and Grichuk.
So, do I wish they had not stuck with Moss so long in Sept. 2016? Of course. Was it clear that Pham should have played instead? Not hardly.
This type of article also makes for potentially bad image for Pham to other teams too. So theoretically if we did want to trade him we might not get suitors the way we should as that attitude doesn’t only not play well in our clubhouse but also other ones. What GM wants to add a me first guy to clubhouse? What player wants to sit next to a guy who will call him out publicly if he goes through a down stretch and it affects Phams play?
Phams allowed to feel all of this. Even saying it in the clubhouse is one thing. But publicly is just a big no no and it’s dispapointkng to see him do this when all he seems to want is respect, even though this behavior only serves to potentially have people lose respect for him.
Not sure if/where it will be posted, but FS1 MLB Whiparound just showed a Tommy Pham interview with Jon Morosi. None of the negative undercurrent some saw in the SI story. Pham was himself, of course, but came across very well.
— Brian Walton (@B_Walton) April 5, 2018
Part of our problem as fans is we tend to think only in terms of the latest game(s) played. What manager in thier right mind would have played a rookie who was striking out 40% of the time over a major league vet who had just come off a strong month and a decent full year.
Oh but he had always hit in the minors. The record books are full of minor league hotshots who ended up with only a cup of coffee at the major league level. Bottom line; Pham was awful in 2016. Turned it around in 17 at Memphis but was called up within a month. Again we tend to want to make a change every time a player goes 0 for 4. You give a player who has performed at a major league level more than just a few games to get it going.
Pham should have been able to do better than just a renewed contract this year. Based on the Cardinal history I suspect they were willing to give him a decent raise. They are typically not going to go full value for a player under control. No one does. Those guys are paying the price for the huge salaries paid to players not under control. Not really a fair system but it is what it is.
As for Wong I keep hoping but am wondering if he will ever get it together. He recovered nicely at the plate last year but still made a lot of bad plays in the field. Now he is having a hard time getting the ball out of the infield this year. Still early, but he needs to get it going. Very fortunate that Gyorko was injured or that Munoz didn’t come out of the gate going 4 for 5 instead of 1 for 5. Otherwise even with Gyorko out he could have been platooning with Munoz.
Only time will tell but I do hope Pham and Wong have a long and productive career with the Cardinals.
his comments are unfortunate and he should keep them to himself. Tommy, remember you’re not the only one who had a tough childhood and tried to make it in pro sports. I wish you well and hope you stay on the team as a top performer, but don’t let your legacy be your attitude, let it be your play on the field.
Pham obviously felt comfortable enough during his rant because there have been other rants by other Cardinal players (you know who) and a general decline of professionalism (you know who) in the organization. So why shouldn’t he get his licks in too. After all, little if anything has been done by the FO to counter this behavior. There will be players who want to see just how much they can get away with before being challenged. Call it cultural modification, or whatever, but get use to the changes.
Certain players may have had or continue to have more leeway than others but I get the impression that Pham isn’t one of those. My impression is that the patience of the front office is wearing thin with him and he had better continue to put up numbers like 2017 or he won’t be here long.
Most teams would love to have a guy put up MVP type numbers and pay him the league minimum but as his salary increases through arbitration and the production decreases (as is likely) the rants and outbursts won’t be as easy to ignore.
MVP numbers bullcrap.Pham had a nice partial season.Flash in the pan IMHO.When and/if he puts up some good productive years in the big leagues then he will have something to stand on instead of acting like a whinyass punk.
Pham was 11th in NL MVP voting last year, which isn’t bad for a partial season but I’m not defending his behavior at all.
Posters are entirely welcome to express your opinions, but you can get your point across without resorting to the same type of language you are chastising Pham for. Thanks.
Unless im missing someone, pham has the 3rd longest tenure with the org behind yadi and waino (barely)…his injuries have kept him out of stl, not our FO, until last year.
He does have a HUGE gripe about not playing in 2017, but in the team’s defense, they were looking to get grichuk ABs because they wanted a long term option, and pham simply cannot be counted on as one..
I dont see pham in stl a few years from now for several reasons (attitude, age, farm OFs) so i dont see it as much of an issue going forward as long as he keeps quiet from now on
I expect him to get a huge ovation today though…even though most fans seem to be against his actions/words
Well what’s done is done and Pham’s comments are on the internet for all to see.
Also in 2016 there was a altercation with a fan in Pittsburgh that made it on line. While no profanity was used he came off as bit of jerk.
Bernie: Cardinals chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. responds to @TphamLV (Tommy Pham's) blistering criticism, calls it "Classic Tommy." – https://t.co/Mny8kve9qi https://t.co/ReB8nCYt2U
— Bernie Miklasz (@miklasz) April 5, 2018
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.