Our Hitters Approach

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  • #111979
    AvatarSoonerinNC
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    I would like everyone’s opinion about our hitting approach.

    Seems to me that the better teams do a much better job of fouling off marginal pitches than we do. Appears that we take two many or try to put them in play with poor results. I know we take a lot of pitches trying to run up the pitch count but other teams do it by fouling off the marginal pitches while we get ourself in the hole by taking too many. An example of a team doing it better was last night in the Astro-Yankee game. The Yankees spoiled a lot of good two strike pitches and caused Cole to go over 100 pitches to get in 7 innings.

    Fowler and Yadi sometimes have the high count at bats but some don’t often. DeJong is one of the best examples of those who don’t. He is perpetually behind 0-2 by taking the first pitch which is usually in the zone and then swings at the second out of the zone. If we could get that guy to stop striking out on bad pitches he could be an all-star with his power and defense.

    I know hitting is not that simple but the top players seem to keep fouling off marginal pitches until they get one they want to put in play.

    #111984
    Avatarmudville
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    Nice observations about our hitters in general and about DeJong in particular. I can’t believe that DeJong isn’t a better hitter than what he showed us this year. I suggested in another thread that maybe Jeff Albert coaching the players one way and Mark Budaska coaching them another way had the hitters screwed up by causing them to think in two different directions at the same time.

    #111985
    RatsbuddyRatsbuddy
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    From what I see our hitters have the same problems most hitters in all of big league baseball have.

    When they get two strikes they still swing like a maniac. They don’t choke up a little. They don’t shorten their swing. Their attitude is I am still trying to hit a homerun instead of just trying to put the ball in play.

    Remember, not only did we have a record number of homeruns this year but I suspect the total number of strikeouts was near record totals as well.

    Just remember, the more homeruns they hit the more $$$ they will make one day. Who cares if they strikeout, right?

    Reds announcer Chris Welsh said last year that it wasn’t too long ago that it was embarrassing to strikeout. Now it’s the norm.

    r/Esteemed Rat

    #111988
    AvatarPugsleyAddams
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    This is just the beginning. It was just a matter of time. We as a species are slowly, but surely, evolving into bigger and stronger subjects. The ballpark configurations look much different to today’s players than they did to players 30 years ago. While the players physical attributes have changed, the ballpark dimensions have not. 100 years from now, 500 foot home runs are going to be common.

    #111999
    Avatar1964cards
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    Sooner, I agree with many of your observations. I too recognize that hitting is one of the most difficult tasks in almost any sport. However:

    – I was amazed the lack of plate protection with two strikes
    – Approach by several hitters was poor almost all season … teams took advantage of these approaches thru shifting. Carp has turned almost exclusively to a pull hitter and I believe it hurts his ability to be successful … Ozuna did not hit the ball right enough … something we have been told he was very effective at while playing for the Marlins and his average suffered
    – Do not disagree with your comments about Dejong. In his defense he looked gassed by mid to late September.
    – There were some positives … Wong altered his approach and it paid big dividends

    I really feel the Cardinal offense has been on a steady decline since a year after McGuire moved on. Getting the hitting coaches aligned and developing sound approaches for players needs to be a top priority this off season.

    #112007
    Avatargscottar
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    For whatever reason the Cardinals appear to be 100% committed to Jeff Albert. Mozeliak has referred to this is as a long term process. If our 2020 offense is as lethargic as 2019 then I see that patience running out.

    We probably can’t expect any more from Fowler than we what we got in 2019. That is who he is at this stage of his career.

    Who knows about Carp? He could be a bounce back candidate but his regression has been going on since August 2018. He used to be a spray hitter who would work deep counts and loved hitting with two strikes. Now he is an extreme pull hitter with the uppercut swing and has been devastated by the shift.

    DeJong looks totally lost. He is basically Tyler O’Neill playing SS.

    Goldy needs to bounce back. His strikeout rate is extremely alarming considering we have him for five more years and he isn’t getting any younger.

    Bader would be an extremely valuable player if he could hit .250 and I actually think he is capable if we stick with him. He reminds me of Kevin Pillar.

    Yadi is Yadi. I have no real complaints about him.

    Edman was great this year but I’m sure the league will look to make adjustments on him in 2020. He needs to be ready for that.

    I don’t expect Ozuna to be back but if he is I wish he would focus on being more of a line drive hitter. With his strength he would still get plenty of homers. To be effective he needs to hit .280 instead of .240.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Avatargscottar.
    #112009
    AvatarCardinals27
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    Batting against Corbin is a perfect example for exposing our poor hitting approach. OUtside of Yadi, Wong and Edman the rest of our hitters most often try and pull the ball against him. You’re playing his game that way, especially if you aren’t patient. Here is my overall grade of situational hitting:

    Advancing Runners: D
    Runners in Scoring Position: D
    2 strike approach: D
    Attempting to beat shift: F

    #112010
    Avatargscottar
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    I forgot to mention Wong on my list. Not much to complain about with him. He had the best year of his career offensively and defensively. He and Flaherty would be the top two vote getters for MVP of the team with Tommy Edman a close third. How DeJong got chosen for the all star game over those two is absurd and is a reflection of the flawed selection system and of course the stats at mid year were different than at year end.

    #112013
    AvatarThundering44
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    Paid - Three Months

    In my observations it seems like we have a lot of rush swings. This is caused by poor timing. If a hitter is on time he is able to match the plane of pitch and stay in hitting zone longer with less or no margin of error. If a hitter is late he has to rush swing which as a result the bat comes in and out of hitting zone. As a result more swings and misses, more check swings and swings at pitches way out of zone. It limits the players ability to hit sliders or pitches away. It has nothing to do with approach they are all professional hitters and are trying hard to fight off pitches and hit balls the other way when needed.
    It is something that they do in their everyday training that is causing this fundamental breakdown in their swing mechanics. It seems easy to fix and i think it is but you have to train this way everyday to get the positive results.

    #112019
    AvatarThundering44
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    Paid - Three Months

    In my observations it seems like we have a lot of rush swings. This is caused by poor timing. If a hitter is on time he is able to match the plane of pitch and stay in hitting zone longer with more margin of error. If a hitter is late he has to rush swing which as a result the bat comes in and out of hitting zone and has less or no margin of error. As a result more swings and misses, more check swings and swings at pitches way out of zone. It limits the players ability to hit sliders or pitches away. It has nothing to do with approach they are all professional hitters and are trying hard to fight off pitches and hit balls the other way when needed.
    It is something that they do in their everyday training that is causing this fundamental breakdown in their swing mechanics. It seems easy to fix and i think it is but you have to train this way everyday to get the positive results.

    #112021
    Euro DandyEuro Dandy
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    Free

    The hitting approach is bad, and most of them don’t adjust based on the situation (e.g., 2 strikes, just need to make contact with a runner on 3B and one out, off-speed pitcher vs power pitcher, etc.)

    A different and bigger problem than “hitting approach” might be that so many of the Cards have poor pitch recognition. Pitch recognition is a talent that isn’t easily taught if a player doesn’t have it. This leads to bad swings and misses on pitches way out of the zone. The difference between very good and bad pitch recognition is a very small slice of time.

    The poor pitch recognition problem can be mitigated somewhat with a better hitting approach, e.g., when a situation calls for it such as 2 strikes, don’t be afraid to let the pitch get deeper while loading for the swing.

    Baseball analytics sort of reminds me of stock market technical analysis — they’ve become self fulfilling prophecies in some ways. Sure, the stock market goes down when certain technical factors are in play because most investors are conditioned to sell off because they are fearing the now inevitable drop that the technical factors suggest. They disregard a stock’s positive fundamental factors. Likewise, you’re probably not going to succeed with today’s players suddenly using previous hitting approaches found in terms like shortening up with 2 strikes, just make contact, small ball, etc. That’s because so few believe in it, practice it, and most importantly, they aren’t any good at it these days.

    #112025
    skippy mckillskippy mckill
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    I’d like to see the stats on how many 2 strike counts lead to a K vs how many HRs are hit with a 2 strike count. It seems to make sense to say change your approach and get on base, but somebody is telling everyone, not just Cardinal hitters, to keep trying to pull the ball in the seats no matter what the count.

    Is it really more likely for MCarp to hit a HR than it is to poke the ball towards 3B/SS when the entire infield is standing in right field?

    #112026
    AvatarCardinals27
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    Successful hitting, and base running for that matter, are all about the count, runners in scoring position, who is on base , i.e. a base stealer, where the defense is playing you, where and what the pitcher is pitching you. IMO, if you have 2 strikes, you should keep your hands ahead, and try and barrel a line drive. Also some pitchers throw way too many out of the zone trying to get you to chase. These pitchers require extra patience, thereby getting the hitter in better counts, and forcing more strike zone fastballs.

    #112028
    AvatarCardinals27
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    https://spiderselite.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Screen-Shot-2018-03-25-at-6.22.35-PM-700×525.png 3 year AL data by pitch count. Interesting.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by AvatarCardinals27.
    #112044
    AvatarThundering44
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    Paid - Three Months

    It all comes back to timing and balance. If your on time with great balance your pitch recognition will improve and you will not chase at balls out of zone. If you practice one swing 99% of the time (A swing) why would you change that swing and go to a B swing with 2 strikes? The toughest pitches you will see as a hitter is when you have 2 strikes. Do you have a better chance to be successful with 2 strikes with your A swing or B swing? The bottom line is an out is an out, weather it is a strike out or a ground out. We should not get caught up with strike outs. I still feel that there is something they do in training the swing everyday that has created all the swings and misses. I can have a poor swing and still put a ball in play and make it look like I have a great approach. I can have a poor swing that generates exit velocity and makes it seem like the swing fits all the technology requirements of a good swing. Over time this swing will not produce results.
    The bottom line is if the hitter is on time and has great balance they have a chance to be successful. If we are not training this correctly everyday then we will stay the same and not get better.

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