February 6, 2019 at 10:12 am #81365stlcard25ParticipantPaid - Annual
The Red Sox bullpen may implode this year because of it.
This makes me nearly as happy as if it were the Cubs. I’d like for them to lose 100 games the next ten years in a row.February 8, 2019 at 3:00 pm #81541
I think this is a well thought out column. Very similar to what I said about holding the FO accountable.
My latest contribution to @TheAthleticSTL : As spring training approaches, this question remains: Did the Cardinals do enough this offseason? Thanks for supporting @TheAthleticSTL https://t.co/hGvHCYO5Il
— Bernie Miklasz (@miklasz) February 8, 2019February 8, 2019 at 3:51 pm #81550
Thank you for sharing that, gscottar.
Almost at the very start, Bernie asserts the team has an “all-in, go-for-it approach for 2019”. However, the Mo quote he cites to back that up uses NONE of those words. Not a one. In the quote, Mo said not to worry about 2020 and 2021 and “winning does matter this year”.
So, right off the bat, expectations are out of whack – set higher than we know they really are, by people reading more into what was said than was intended. Bernie uses “all-in” in quotes multiple times in his article, yet cited no source for it.
What I heard and read this winter (not in Bernie’s article) is that they want to win 90 games and get back into the playoffs.
We all know they are capable of spending more, so no, they did not go “all-in”. Why that seems to be a newsflash to some really confuses me. The Cards did not say they would spend “stupid money” like the Phillies owner. The Cards have chosen not to – at least so far. If they fail to reach October again, there can be no more excuses. That is the risk they have chosen to take.
If they fail in 2019, then yes, they should be held accountable. But of course these imprecise terms like “fail” and “accountability” – and even “all-in” – mean different things to different people.
As we have discussed ad nauseum, is making the playoffs good enough? Heck, some last year were celebrating just because the team improved. Some would want Mo fired, as if his replacement would magically get a bigger player budget to spend. My take is that you cannot fire the owner, the person who is setting the team’s financial course.February 8, 2019 at 4:14 pm #81552February 8, 2019 at 10:19 pm #81572
Well I agree this topic has been debated numerous times but I don’t see that as a negative. It needs to be discussed everyday in my opinion.
Mo is pretty good at crafting his statements in a way where they can’t be 100% interpreted one way or the other but semantics aside I don’t think it is a big stretch to conclude that the Cardinals view this as important year and their intent is to focus on 2019, based on various statements throughout the off season.
The central question remains, which was the theme of Bernie’s article, have the Cardinals done enough this winter to win the division?
I am certainly not complaining about Goldschmidt and Miller. Those were great moves but why not take that final step and do one more big move to push us over the top. The Brewers will never have the financial resources that we have and the Cubs appear to be tapped out so we are missing an opportunity in my opinion.
It isn’t wrong for Cardinal fans to have lofty expectations. History tells us those expectations are justified. We have more world series championships of any NL team and the second most of any team in MLB. We are baseball royalty. We should act like it.February 9, 2019 at 6:47 am #81574
The part of the debate I mentioned specifically as ad nauseum was the long thread about whether 2018 was a success.
If you want to post about the payroll every day, that seems excessive, but if it makes you happy, go for it!February 9, 2019 at 12:03 pm #81581
Brian, I totally agree with you that phrases like “all in”, “going for it”, or “show more urgency” are subjective terms, hard to quantify, and may mean different things to different people but they are fairly common phrases. It is hard to quantify everything in life.I guess people know it when they see it or at least they think they do. I think the Cardinals have “gone for it” to some degree. Adding Andrew Miller was big, trading three prospects and a draft pick for a guy with one year of control is pretty aggressive. The FO has made statements this winter like “2019 is important” and “we know 88 wins is not good enough in this division”. Those comments suggest a certain level of urgency. My question, and I think Bernie’s point, is have they done enough?
Other teams use these subjective phrases too.
Great news for Phils fans. But shouldn’t every team be in a win-right-now mode? What is the point in showing up if you’re not trying to win? Thankful for being in an organization that wants to win! pic.twitter.com/GoDYBYXpEJ
— Buster Posey (@BusterPosey) February 9, 2019February 9, 2019 at 12:37 pm #81591
Here is the challenge as I see it. No one – and I mean no one – knows what “enough”, “not enough” or “too much” is – until after the fact.
Some people always are going to want more. The Cardinals could do more. They decided where to draw their line. That is their right, since it is their team. They also will have to take the heat if they fall short of THEIR stated goal.
The issue I have is that people are changing the team goals to what THEY want.
I don’t have an issue with Bernie wishing the Cards should do more. He probably dusts off that same column every spring. I don’t even have a major issue with him asserting the Cards are “75% in”, though he provides nothing to back that up.
My issue was with him quoting the Cards as being “all-in” and basing his criticism on them possibly falling short of a target they did not set.
So does he issue a mea culpa if they DO make their goals this season? Hahahahaha!February 9, 2019 at 1:33 pm #81592
So does he issue a mea culpa if they DO make their goals this season? Hahahahaha!
I guess about the same chance as the FO apologizing to the fans if they don’t make the playoffs again.February 9, 2019 at 3:27 pm #81598
It seems like a good time to review the Cardinals view of last season and their plans for this year.
Bill DeWitt Jr, October 4, 2018
On NOT being all-in:
“It’s not like, ‘Oh, we better win the division next year or we’re going to turn everything upside down.’ That’s not our view. I think that’s a dangerous approach because then you put people in position going all-in as the model. ‘Forget about two, three, five years down the road when, oh well — I’m not going to be around. So, I don’t care.’ I don’t think that is the way to operate a team.”
“Playoffs are our goal,” the chairman said. “My goal is to win enough games to make the playoffs, whatever that number happens to be. Hopefully beyond that so that it’s not a one-game wild-card appearance.”
DeWitt explained the model he wants is a team that, over multiple years, can average 90 wins. That, he said, assures a playoff berth, and “frankly, we felt that incremental benefit (of free agents) could get us those last few wins.”
On free agency:
“There is value in star players. No question about it,” DeWitt said, declining to speak specifically about any one player. “I think the question has to be, ‘What is the value?’ You can’t fall in love with some name player at the expense of making a bad decision which is going to hurt you down the road. We’ll wade in and determine who would be a good fit to improve our club. We’re aggressive and we’ve got resources to deploy if the right situation emerges.”
“I think it points out, first of all, it’s a high-risk game — free agency,” DeWitt said. “And it’s one of the reasons we’ve probably not been in it so strong over the years. It’s just high risk. You make a commitment that can hurt what you’re able to down the road if you’re wrong. We’ve been disciplined on that over the years (and) you better be darn sure who you sign and what they’re all about in addition to their numbers and what’s going to fit with our club.”
“I’m aware of the frustration of our fans,” DeWitt said. “I think we’ve got great fans. They’re extremely knowledgeable, they understand the game, and I believe they understand what we’re trying to accomplish. While we haven’t actually made it to the playoffs the past three years, we’ve been extremely close. It’s not like we’ve done a teardown and rebuild and we’ll see you in four years.
“We were right there,” the chairman said, “and couldn’t close it out.”
Mozeliak, October 17, 2018
“The one takeaway is 88 wins was not good enough,” Mozeliak acknowledged. “We sort of all understand that this past season we saw some monumental change. We had to make an in-season managerial change, obviously that had an effect on the coaching staff and we let two of our hitting coaches go, so there was a lot of fluidity during the season to sort of adjust, but I do feel like Mike Shildt did a tremendous job getting our club back on the right direction.”February 9, 2019 at 7:31 pm #81603
Buster Posey must be speaking of past offseasons because his FO is 34.5mil under the cap and has acquired 2mil of outside help (pomeranz and vendetti) this winter.February 9, 2019 at 7:32 pm #81604
Boot lickerFebruary 10, 2019 at 10:39 am #81638
It is not coincidence. It is a strategy. Wait them out.
Amazing nugget by @Ken_Rosenthal : *Nine Scott Boras free agents remain unemployed: Harper, Moustakas, González and Gómez; Marwin Gonzalez; left-handers Dallas Keuchel and Gio Gonzalez; catchers Martín Maldonado and catcher Matt Wieters. https://t.co/6UsjzYRhNN
— Mark Saxon (@markasaxon) February 10, 2019February 10, 2019 at 12:27 pm #81652
The press and the fans will do Boras work for him with the non-stop collusion claims of ownership cheapness. All he has to do is occasionally stoke a fire.February 10, 2019 at 2:11 pm #81654
Baseball revenues are up and players salaries are down. Is Boras responsible for that too?
Some of you guys know no ends to how you will defend ownership, particularly Cardinal ownership. The Dewitt’s had an amazing run of success during the first 15 years of this century and that has no doubt built up a lot of good will, deservedly so. The last three years have been sub par for Cardinal standards so I guess we will see how long that goodwill will last. You can only fool 3M annually people for so long. If you want to defend them until your dying breath that is certainly your right.
There has also been many comments this offseason suggesting a need for urgency and how important 2019 is, so like any good politician, the folks in our FO know how to say things in as many different ways in an attempt to please everyone. The risk with that is that you end up pleasing no one.February 10, 2019 at 3:22 pm #81660
Players salaries are down?
I guess so if you consider three-tenthousands of one percent as down. I’d call it plateaued at best, but i guess “down” fits the current popular agenda better.February 10, 2019 at 3:59 pm #81662
I’m not here to bash the DeWitts and the FO nor am I here to defend Boras. When we make moves that I like I will be the first to heap praise. I think picking up Goldy and Miller was very good. I’m just disappointed we haven’t done more and I’m not going to blindly defend our ownership and front office. Holding them accountable seems more appropriate to me. They may own the team but it would hard for them to pay the bills without the 3M fans who buy tickets.
As for Boras he does what agents do. He strings things out and demands top dollar for his players. Why is that a newsflash? Do I like his style? Not really but he has been doing this for a long time so why are his tactics ruing baseball all of a sudden? Maybe the ivy league front office staffs that every team has now have finally convinced the owners to stop giving out the big contracts to certain players. Fine, good for them. That just means the MLBPA will ask for changes to service time in the next CBA. But to blame all of baseball’s problems on Boras seems close minded and lazy to me.February 10, 2019 at 4:13 pm #81663
All, how bad has the whinefest over mlb salaries gotten? Thanks for asking! ?
It’s to the point where the NYY are being called cheapskates! The Evil Empire is cheap! Steinbrenner is having to defend his player budget. Did you think you’d ever see this?
For 15 straights seasons the NYY were luxury tax payors. In 2018 they got under the cap and reset back to the 20% rate. If ever there was a case study for it’s never enough to please the masses, here it is.
that’s how much the average mlb salary is down. Well boo-hoo, you’ll just have to find a way to make 4mil work over 52 wks.
Its a shame the amount of effort being concentrated on mlb salaries by the fans and the press isn’t directed toward milb salaries.February 10, 2019 at 4:38 pm #81664mudvilleParticipantPaid - Annual
IMO, when figuring average major league salaries, they should
throw out the salaries of the top 10 percent, or say, any player who’s making $5M/yr, or better. Use a basis like that to compare major league salaries to prior years. Who cares about the players who are making $6M/yr or $10M/yr or $34M/yr? They are living in a different world than everybody else including most, if not all, of the posters here.February 10, 2019 at 5:11 pm #81667NJ315Participant
Record revenue for 2018 payroll down. How about lowering ticket prices since they don’t think the players deserve a higher share of the revenue? I am amazed that fans are ok with owners keeping the lion share of their hard earned money. I rather the spend more on the product on the field but if not lower the prices for fans. They call players greedy but the owners get a pass. Amazing.February 10, 2019 at 5:12 pm #81669BlackHillsCardParticipantFree
Its a shame the amount of effort being concentrated on mlb salaries by the fans and the press isn’t directed toward milb salaries.
Why does it have to be either or? I’ve complained about both situations and I put the blame of the MiLB situation largely on the MLBPA for turning their backs on the players in MiLB.February 10, 2019 at 5:13 pm #81672
The Yankees payroll is currently at $199M. I have no problem with that. If some of their fans think it should be higher then so be it. That is their issue not mine. I’m not worried about the Yankees. Hal Steinbrenner doesn’t run their team like his dad did which is probably a good thing.
JJ, I’m not sure I understand your disgust with MLB player salaries. They are down or “stagnant” while revenue continues to climb. Were you expecting the players to celebrate this? Feeling sorry for someone making millions of dollars is not the issue. Nor do I see the point of blindly defending those making billions of dollars like this is the days of the 1880’s barons of industry times. This is a multi billion dollar industry therefore the players are going to expect a certain % of that, since they are the one’s the fans are paying to see.
As for MiLB players, I agree they are underpaid but the reality is that 99% of baseball fans don’t give a hoot about the minors. They care about their MLB teams and that is it. This board isn’t representative of most fans, good or bad.
I’m sorry the masses are giving you so much heartburn.February 10, 2019 at 6:09 pm #81681
In the last few days, we’ve touched on several generic terms that lead to issues based on differing interpretations. One of the recent examples was “all-in”.
I have been thinking about another term mentioned a few posts above – “holding the team accountable”.
Here on February 10, exactly what does that mean?
I get that at the end of a season, when there are standings and playoff berths and all, which are relatively hard measures. Are you holding them accountable for 2018 right now?
But things have changed since. They added a couple of very good players and did not lose anyone crucial.
During the off-season, one’s feeling about the team is almost completely opinion driven. One person thinks they did not do enough to improve the team over the prior year. Another thinks they did.
Who is right? And how will those who are concerned “hold the team accountable” right now?
I don’t think angry social media posts or impassioned forum comments are going to matter. Are folks prepared to stop watching games – on TV and at the ballpark – right away from the first spring training game of 2019?
Are you going to cancel your FOX Sports Midwest subscription and not renew your season tickets? Will you quit buying licensed merchandise? In my view, the only real way to hold ownership accountable for anything is to stop supporting them financially. Talk seems nothing more than that – talk.
I get holding them accountable down the road if the team fails to meet its stated goals in 2019. But as far as the off-season goes, they pretty much did what they said they would do. So, what are you holding them to right now? To me, it seems you’ve created a higher standard than they hold themselves to.
Will those into accountability please help me understand? I am serious about this. Thanks.February 10, 2019 at 7:45 pm #81687
It doesn’t need to be both. Milb salaries is a problem area, not MLB.
The mlb owners AND players are getting bloody rich, good for them. I could care less how they share the % of reveue. Mlb rooks make a half mil for a season, no sympathy here.
I’m entertained at a cost i deem reasonable for 162 games of tv. If i choose to go to a game and spend extra $ for the in person experience, that was my choice. No-one holding a gun to my head forcing me to spend the extra bucks.February 10, 2019 at 10:11 pm #81689
Brian, I can’t give you a quantifiable answer to “going for it @ or “holding someone accountable “. You are right in that they are opinionated, subjective statements and concepts. However, I don’t think it is necessary to ask the well educated folks who participate in this forum to have to turn to google to find out what those concepts mean.
When I use the phrase “hold them accountable “ it refers to my opinion that the Cardinal front office does not adequately use the resources available at their disposable to build a team commensurate with the level of support afforded by the Cardinal fan base and community. It is also my opinion that most of the local media tends to fall in line with the group think mentality of our leaders know what is best for us so we should just accept it. In the rare event a local media person raise a voice against the ownership or front office and I share that with the group it is usually met with ridicule and scorn.
I’m not afraid of criticism. It comes with the territory of message boards but I would remind everyone that being critical sometimes does not make that person any less of a fan. At the end of the day I just want our team to win which means winning divisions and championships. I don’t really care if our payroll is $5M or $500M as long as we win but reality tells me that it takes resources to win in this business and it frustrates me if I feel that the fan base is being shortchanged in the name of profits.
What else are we supposed to talk about in the off-season? There are no games to discuss so the name of the game is transactions. That is how we measure things this time of year. At least I do.
I realize this board is dominated by minor league enthusiasts. My interest level in that has certainly increased but my number one priority is what is going on in St. Louis and it always will be.
I don’t think it is too much to ask if the people that run this organization to always be doing everything in their power to ensuring we are the best we can be. When I feel that is happening then I will stop complaining about it. And yes this is all opinion based. I am sorry I can’t quantify it for you.
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