Cooperstown Class of 2022

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  • #179507
    gscottar
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    I am surprised with the number of media people, even local media in STL, who are whining so much that Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, and Schilling didn’t get voted in. They act like it should be a no brainer that those guys get voted in. I don’t get it. Personally, I am glad none of them made it, although I suppose one of the era committees could vote them in later.

    #179509
    Nigel T
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    Paid - Three Months

    How does Ortiz completely escape any focus on his steroid use and sketchy involvement with violent felons.
    He may be the greatest guy, but scrutiny seems to get arbitrarily applied according to the players relationship with the press.
    The reason I really don’t know about these issues with Ortiz is they get little play. I understand it isn’t the time to question a man’s character after he has been shot. The point is watching MLB network for months, all the negative focus was on Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, and Schilling. And Schilling…hate speech? Are we going to enforce that equitably? Have we historically enforced that at all?

    #179513
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

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    I discussed Ortiz on the podcast today. My understanding is that Ortiz’ link to steroids was due to a test done in 2003 that was pre-agreed by all parties to be confidential and anonymous. Yet results supposedly surfaced somehow. Not proven and with results since destroyed, it is then circumstantial.

    Again, if there were rules that kept players off the ballot if deemed ineligible by some agreed to set of criteria, then these debates would be resolved up front.

    Instead, they throw everyone on the ballot and leave it to 400 different voters to try to sort it out. And then the writers take the heat – as if 400 people anytime anywhere could agree on anything.

    #179515
    kscardfan
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    He didn’t make my hall of fame because I consider him half a player. I look at DH’s the same as Relief Pitchers. Failed starters, failed position players. Great hitter.

    #179517
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

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    A number of relievers are in the Hall of Fame, so that comparison doesn’t hold in practice. In fact, Papi isn’t the first DH. Edgar Martinez broke that mold in 2019. (Update: Apology for originally slighting Frank Thomas.)

    #179519
    kscardfan
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    I realize Relievers and DH’s are in. I’m saying MY HOF doesn’t include them. I just don’t agree with putting a failed starter or fielder in. Just my opinion I realize others feel differently.

    #179522
    Nigel T
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    Paid - Three Months

    I am shocked that with all the MLB emphasis on hiring Ivy League scholars, no one has done a quantifiable study going game by game, at bat by at bat, where Barry Bonds’s final seasons under overwhelming evidence impacted both organizations and undividual careers.
    As he stood on top of the plate clad in armor peering out from the beady eyes embedded in that massive ever-expanding cranium, he changed winning probabilities on both game and season levels. He negatively impacted career length but also subsequent earning power.

    #179524
    1982 willie
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    You can’t say ortizs test is circumstantial and thereby irreverent, but yet claim Clemons did it based on the words of another player who admitted doing it. Clemons never tested positive. Personally I loved Clemens response. He basically said he played for the love of the game, didn’t play for the hall of fame. And no the hall of fame wasn’t created for the most popular players like someone said, it was created for the greatest of players.Ty Cobb wasn’t a popular player but he was one of the greatest players. Same with Clemens or Bonds even though I didn’t care for him personally. But that isn’t what it’s about. So they should change the name from hall of fame to hall of popularity then the recent results would align with what they would be voting for.

    #179526
    jj-cf-stl
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    I’d rather have a DH (Ortiz) that can’t field than a 1Bman (Killibrew) who can’t field.

    DH’s lose a half win yearly (162 games) on their WAR totals positional adjustment, beyond the 1B adjustment.

    So if your career accumulates -18.7 or -20.9 dWAR does neither deserve the hall?

    The hall is loaded with negatives defenders. Their fame came from their bats and postseason play.

    #179528
    1982 willie
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    Well I’d rather not have the dh. Game was developed understanding all players in game would field as well as bat. It also keeps the pitchers honest far as hitting players but using a bunch of relievers changed that a bit. So in your case of killibrew, at least he was doing what he’s supposed to, hit and field even if fielding poorly. Far as players being in hall who fielded poorly, true there are but they still did the task, not sit on the bench while someone else took their spot in field. My problem with players getting in who have great offensive numbers but average or below fielding is the same credence is not given the other way around. I feel rolen is just as great defensively as Ortiz is offensively if not better with better numbers the opposite way, comparing Ortiz defense with rolens offense. Baseball is just as much about defense as offense if not moreso in my eyes. In baseball, the defense has the ball which is different than most sports. Now if the batter could pick his pitcher, it might be different but that’s not the case.

    #179531
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    I get that some would like to change the rules of the game. And if the rules were different, so likely would Hall of Fame consideration. But that isn’t real. Like it or not, the DH has been here for almost 50 years (in the AL) and it isn’t going away.

    Perhaps someday, if defensive measurements become as refined and dependable as offensive ones, they might be considered more equal. But today, they aren’t. WAR makes the best general attempt to bring them together and a DH would have no defensive component, while a defensive star would get a boost in comparison.

    I sense that Rolen’s vast improvement in the balloting results in recent years can at least in part be attributed to a better understanding of his defensive dominance via advanced metrics.

    #179532
    Nigel T
    Participant

    Paid - Three Months

    Again, I am shocked at people who discuss this issue as though fame and statistical achievement don’t need to be rooted in reality. Those bastards cheated. They harmed people. They deceived those who loved them and provided them with the avenue for their success.
    Their selfish deception irreparably harmed the game. It is a slippery slope to choose to expose the character flaws of some people while not exposing the flaws of others, so the argument to include them with revelations of their conduct included on plaques doesn’t have a real-world practical application.

    Are we really going to go back and update every player’s Hall of Fame biographies to include their most notorious actions. Is that what we have stooped to?

    #179534
    kscardfan
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    Free

    I agree with willie. Not often I would say that but I say it tonight. To an extent I also agree with Nigel T. But to me it should be about looking at the player. Was he good enough or not. Take into consideration the talent of that player and try to make a decision. selig and larusssa are in the hall. Did they benefit from steroids? Gibby said he would have taken them if that is what it took to compete. Would you deny him that vote. I hated big mac over his steroid use. He only admitted it to get a job after his career was over. How many of you still idolize him. I was totally against these guys getting in at first. I hate that it happened. Tainted the record book forever. That pisses me off the most. But with time I have come to the thought that it is about their talent. Were they good enough w/out the roids? That is what I base it on. OJ is in the NFL hof. Talk about character. Bonds and Arod belong. Just my opinion. They are in my HOF. That’s really all that counts to me. Finished with my drunk text. Carry on.

    #179536
    Nigel T
    Participant

    Paid - Three Months

    Bonds was only arguably better than his dad and no where near his godfather Willie Mays up through age 34. He was really only superior to his dad in ops and in avoiding strike outs.He saw and actually experienced their decline. Bonds saw a path to avoid that inevitable demise.He didn’t care about MLB or the integrity of a game he saw as racist. Why should he not destroy that history while getting unprecedented wealth and notoriety?
    The idea of honoring the person who plotted to destroy you seems incongruous.

    #179537
    kscardfan
    Participant

    Free

    While I believe Mays was the better player. To Bonds he wasn’t in the ballpark with Mays I have to disagree. Character be damned. On the field is what matters. In the field Mays takes the edge.

    At Bats (AB) –Willie Mays 10,881 , Barry Bonds 9,847

    Batting Average (BA)-0- Willie Mays 0.302 –Barry Bonds 0.298

    Hits (H)– Willie Mays 3,283 – Barry Bonds 2,935

    Runs (R)–Willie Mays 2,062 — Barry Bonds 2,227

    Home Runs (HR)–Willie Mays 660 —Barry Bonds 762

    Runs Batted In (RBI) —Willie May 1,903 —Barry Bonds 1,996

    Doubles (2B) –Willie Mays 523 –Barry Bonds 601

    Triples (3B) –Willie Mays 140–Barry Bonds 77

    Walks (BB0 –Willie Mays 1,464– Barry Bonds 2,558

    Strikeouts (SO) — Willie Mays 1,526– Barry Bonds 1,539

    Stolen Bases (SB) — Willie Mays 338– Barry Bonds 514

    On Base Percentage Plus Slugging Percentage (OPS)
    Willie Mays 0.941
    Barry Bonds 1.051

    Hit by Pitch (HBP) –Willie Mays 4– Barry Bonds 106

    Wins Above Replacement (WAR) — Willie Mays 155.9 –Barry Bonds 162.5

    #179538
    jj-cf-stl
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    We faced Ortiz in two different World Series and he owned us. His bat and popularity carries his enshrinement.

    I don’t want to single out just Killebrew. Frank Thomas, Reggie Jackson, etc. are enshrined with similar negative D value. I long list could be made.

    #179544
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Almost everything in life is subjective to a degree. While we try to incorporate statistics the best we can and make everything objective it just isn’t 100% possible. As long as humans are voting there is going to be some subjectivity. For some voters the HOF selection is going to incorporate more than just WAR. Hopefully we don’t turn the voting over to the computers like we are about to do with balls and strikes.

    In my opinion guys like Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro, and McGwire should never sniff the HOF because there is too much evidence to suggest they cheated. Cheaters should face consequences. Not only did they violate the integrity of the game but they negatively impacted the careers of other players because the playing field wasn’t level. If Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose can’t get in then these other cheaters shouldn’t either.

    As for Curt Schilling, I don’t think there is any evidence that he cheated, however, I personally wouldn’t vote for him either. Why? Because I think he is a 100% complete jerk. Jerk is actually not the word I would really use to describe him but this is a family message board so I will refrain. I don’t care which side of the political fence he is on. Makes no difference to me but have you ever read all of his social media comments? I have and they are very disturbing. They go WAY beyond your normal garden variety political comments. Again, that is subjective and I know others feel differently about him and those HOF voters are free to vote how they please.

    People say that Ty Cobb was a real scoundrel and he got voted in. Ok, I am sure he was but frankly I think comparing eras is really difficult because society changes. There are a lot of things different now than they were in the 1920’s and 30’s so I just think it is difficult to make that apples to apples.

    #179546
    Cardinal in France
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    Free

    Frankly, the Hall of Fame ranks right up there with the Miss America contest and All America football players on the list of things I spent much time thinking about about. They are all beauty contests of a sort with no particular criteria involved in selection. If I really gave a fiddle, I guess I’d say keep the cheaters out. Then again, one of my oldest friends back in Texas always says: “Hey, baseball is just entertainment, so let ’em all dope if that provides us with with a better show.”

    #179547
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    CiF, your friend isn’t named Selig by chance, is he? 😉

    Seriously though. It all comes around when you realize that Bud is in the Hall and the players he rode to success are being kept out. Something about gold and rules, I suspect….

    #179556
    1982 willie
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Baseball profited off steroids. They knew it was going on and chose to look the other way. The players shouldn’t be scapegoats. Like some when it came out, I was dead set on them not making the hall. But thing is you learn stuff over time anad your opinions can change. Like I said it’s wrong to look the other way on one guy cause everyone likes him especially when he’s only half a ball player but let’s dig in on Clemons and other guys cause we don’t like them. I don’t feel steroids did any harm to the game but these lame hall voters and the current commissioner are.

    #179566
    CariocaCardinal
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    My guess is that many of the writers who are now HOF voters knew and looked the other way also.

    #179568
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    When Steve Wilstein of the Associated Press was the first to report on steroids in baseball by noting during the 1998 home run race that Big Mac was using androstenedione, the drug had not been banned in MLB. It had already been banned in Olympic sports, however.

    To say Wilstein was punished by the baseball establishment – teams and players alike – is fact. Some other writers even disparaged him.

    This is a good story looking at Wilstein (and touches on others in the media) in the steroids years – good and bad.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/erikmalinowski/steve-wilstein-the-reporter-who-launched-the-steroid-era-is

    #179624
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    #179859
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

Viewing 24 posts - 51 through 74 (of 74 total)
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