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The Cards were fine through the 2015 all-star break – had a heck of a first half then limped in to a 100 win season before getting crushed by the Cubs in the divisional series.
Last WS appearance was 2013.
Beginning with the ASB in 2015 the Cards have been fairly unremarkable and no threat at all to win a pennant or WS. There was the 2019 NLCS demolition by the Braves and an unlikely 17 game winning streak to salvage a 2021 playoff appearance but not Schildt’s job.
There is a window here with Goldschmidt & Arenado plus some pretty good up and coming young talent that is begging to be taken advantage of.
Moves don’t always work but the current roster should dictate that some moves be made to make this team a real contender not just a first round sacrifice.
The Cardinals are a real contender right now.
In the “if everything goes right” sense, sure. At the very least, the Mets, Braves, and Dodgers are all likely ahead of the Cards in the pecking order and I’d say the Padres and Phillies will be too. So #6 in the NL doesn’t scream “real contender” IMO. The lineup matches up well, but every other pitching staff has us beat unless we find #1 starter somewhere between now and next October.
We have potential #1 starters in Flaherty and Mikolas. Mo won’t make a move until he sees how they do. By the way, was Quintana a #1 starter when he shut the Phils down on 2 hits over 5 1/3 innings?
By the way, was Quintana a #1 starter when he shut the Phils down on 2 hits over 5 1/3 innings?
I dunno, did the Cards win the game?
Who’d you rather have starting Game 1 of a playoff series, Jose Quintana or Zack Wheeler? Or for Game 2, Miles Mikolas or Aaron Nola? Through the list, the Cards just don’t match up with the other top teams rotation wise. If Flaherty turns the clock back, things look a little better. Depending on oft injured or aging pitchers is a risky business, though.
I’ll also add, the Mets just signed our “#1” to be their #4/5. So that should tell you something. They already have a #1 and a 4/5 and also signed a 1A and 2/3 this off-season.
Flaherty has pitched like a #1. So has Mikolas.
By the way, 25, why would you ask if the Cards won the 1st game of the playoffs that Quintana started? He pitched like an ace against a team that went all the way to the WS. And should have been left in for another inning or two IMHO.
bc, I asked because the Cards lost that game, and Quintana is no longer on the team anyway. What you’re advocating for is the best case scenario. The Cards and we fans have been suckered in by that line of thinking for so many years in a row. Some of us are tired of the hope and pray method and would appreciate an effort to add some certainty at the top of the rotation.
25 is on the money. No way you trust this staff to just stay healthy. The passive FO needs to add a legit starter badly.
Rodon is an elite level starter and I like him but the contract he is looking for just doesn’t seem like the kind of thing the Cardinals would do. As Bob mentioned he will want 7 years/$200M. I think I would stay away from that. We would be better off trading for an elite pitcher.
Think about when the Cardinals last had two first rate stopper type SP’ers as members of the five man rotation. Then think about how those two pitchers were acquired by the team. One was signed for the sum of $300,000…Haha! The other was a member of a Big League affiliate team located in Greenville, SC and was an offering in a trade that involved J.D. Drew. The former went on to be awarded the ’05 NL CYA and also placed second and third in the CYA voting in subsequent seasons with the Cardinals. The latter has been a member of the Cardinal team for his entire 17 year Big League career, is a two time 20 game winner, and has two second place and two third place finishes in the NL CYA voting. When you consider these simple facts, it’s incredibly easy to understand why the philosophy of the Cardinal bosses in regards to top-shelf SP’ers will never be to spend enormous amounts of money to place one in a Redbird uniform. These two aforementioned SP’ers perfectly illustrate why the Redbirds approach is to be patient, play it close to the vest, and wait for an oppotunity to hit the proverbial jackpot without going all in on every hand they’re dealt. In my estimation, it’s a sound approach.
No chance of Rondon, we all know that.
Their business model buys at the deadline 60% off and hopes for the best, of who’s available.
Well said 25, all of the above.
When you consider these simple facts, it’s incredibly easy to understand why the philosophy of the Cardinal bosses in regards to top-shelf SP’ers will never be to spend enormous amounts of money to place one in a Redbird uniform. These two aforementioned SP’ers perfectly illustrate why the Redbirds approach is to be patient, play it close to the vest, and wait for an oppotunity to hit the proverbial jackpot without going all in on every hand they’re dealt. In my estimation, it’s a sound approach.
It’s an approach that can work, sure. Even Rodon was basically a scrap heap pickup a couple years ago (DFAed). Where the logic breaks down is when you realize that the Cards will have FOUR openings in the rotation after 2023. It’s feasible to hope that one of the prospects (Libby, Graceffo, McGreevy) can fill a spot. It’s also reasonable to expect either Mikolas or Monty to sign an extension. Beyond that… you’ve got Hudson and Woodford or hope you strike gold elsewhere. Finding two guys to outfit a staff after next year may prove difficult. That’s why so many of us are looking for an upgrade now that’ll carry us into 2024 or beyond.
I’ll also share the reality that the Cards have won exactly one pennant since Pujols left in 2011, thanks to the tremendous farming in the Luhnow days. I’ll ever maintain that having an all time great (Pujols in that early stretch was probably a top 5 hitter of all time accounting for the era and environment) to pencil in papered over a lot of the FO’s weaknesses. Sans Albert, it’s a good possibility they’d still be titleless in my lifetime.
Good results don’t always mean the strategy is good. In this case, finding a long term starter would be a great strategy. Hopefully Mo is exploring that option as we speak.
No question that the presence of Albert Pujols was a boon for this ownership group’s success. When they won in ’06, it was the first time I’d seen my favorite team win a WS Championship in 24 years. I also understand what you’re driving at in regards to ’24 and beyond, but I’m getting a little long in tooth and only focused on opening day of ’23…Haha! I think they’ll win the NLC next season and I think both Billy Jr. and Johnny share my view. After that, who knows? No one gave them a chance in either the ’06 or ’11 post-season. I understand why a lot of fans feel a sense of urgency. I have to acknowledge that the simultaneous presence of Goldy and Nado creates a scenario that gives fans the impression that the Redbirds could steamroll through the post-season if only they’d supplement those two guys with a high priced, top shelf SP’er. I just don’t feel that sort of approach is something that’s contained in the DNA strand of this ownership. They probably feel that they did okay waiting for the emergence of great Cardinal pitchers to supplement guys like Suppan, Weaver, Westbrook and countless others. They simply go with what’s worked for them in the past in regards to SP’ers.
I’ll also say that even though TLR doesn’t wear a Redbird cap on his HOF plaque, he should most definitely have a caricature of Albert Pujols placed on it…
and that’s becoming the distant past quickly. They need an elite pitcher. 2006 was a fluke and 2011 they had an elite pitcher Mr. Carpenter. Quantity will no translate into quality. Winning the division sure that would do. Going deep into the playoffs not so much. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Rinse and repeat for 2023
They had Chris Carpenter in ’06 and also in’04, although a late season arm problem neccessited that he was left off of the entire ’04 post-season roster.
Yes he was. He was also an almost ruthless competitor who struggled with arm problems for virtually his entire career. I’d rather hand Chirs Carpenter the baseball when he was laying on a stretcher than to hand it to a lot of guys.
Some posters have unrealistic expectations. The Mets player payroll of over $400 million this coming season is higher than the total REVENUES of half the teams in baseball. And you want the CARDS to go toe to toe with them on payroll? That simply doesn’t work.
No one wants the Cards to spend Mets money. The ask is that they don’t pretend they’re in the poor house every year and scrimp while 3.3 million plus pad their pocketbooks.
Not to mention, the Cards just fell further behind the Braves today with the Murphy move. The bargain bin rotation will win the Central and have about a 2% chance of winning the pennant. Some fans, who are more interested in BDW’s net worth than championship baseball, will rejoice and call it a success.
Albert Pujols doesn’t come along to save the team very often so when you have two borderline HOF guys in their prime and you have a middling rotation, expect some to call it what it is. Some expect a little more than wishing on a lucky star.
I would love to have Rodon on the team for 2023. He would provide that ace we are needing. I do not want a 7 year contract, though. If I was the GM, I probably wouldn’t be able to get him signed since I would only want a 5 year contract.
I think without an ace, this team has almost no chance to win the WS in 2023. I am also concerned that they won’t have enough starting pitching to win the WS in 2024, either.
2023:
Wainwright – Was his performance at the end of 2022 really a product of an injury or age?
Flaherty – an ace if he is healthy but will he be healthy?
Montgomery – pitched well for the first month but ended the year poorly.
Mikolas – our most consistent pitcher over the entire 2022 season but is 34 and not an ace.
Matz – injury concerns
Hudson – poor 2022. Was he still recovering from TJ surgery.
Liberatore, Woodford, Pallante and Thompson are the leading candidates to fill in, if needed.
Hicks, Graceffo and McGreevy seem to be further down the list of possible starters.This list does not seem WS Championship worthy.
2024:
Wainwright – retired
Flaherty – free agent looking for the highest salary
Montgomery – free agent with Scott Boras as an agent
Mikolas – free agent
Matz – signed through 2025
Hudson
Liberatore
Woodford
Pallante
Graceffo ???Still not a great starting staff.
The only good thing about not signing Rodon is that the team will have money available for next year’s free agent class. Ohtani, Urias, Scherzer, Nola and Giolito among others. Urias might be a target since the Dodgers might prioritize Ohtani.
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