2nd Base defense…

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  • #154677
    Avatarshakenbake McBride
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    About a week ago I asked the following question…”can anyone out there find stats that indicate whether or not the constant shifting of infielders has made certain infield positions more or less valuable defensively than in previous years?”…This is from CBS Sports…Gorman recently approached the Cardinals about playing second base, and has been working out there in the early days of camp. You can hide a poor or inexperienced defender at second these days thanks to the shift and the fly ball/strikeout heavy nature of the game.

    #154708
    AvatarCardsFanInChiTown
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    That would be great if he can be close to average at 2B, that adds a potentially solid bat to the lineup down the road. Having a whole year at AA or AAA to learn the position will undoubtedly benefit him compared to being thrown into MLB and fully learning on the job.

    #154710
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    Not that I want this to happen, but the organization should keep in mind that Gorman’s highest trade value is a power-hitting 3B. If that’s what turns out to happen… learning 2B is not going to matter in the long run. His value might decrease if the switch to 2B or the OF fails at the cost of his development at 3B Just thinking.

    #154711
    AvatarLoganAlpha30X7
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    I don’t think that they’d even begin to think of trading Gorman until they’d know if Arenado is sticking around, and even then they could bring Gorman up and have him spell all three infield base positions as he learns and such…

    #154712
    Avatarmudville
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    Tommy Edman is a factor when considering the future of second base. He’s a gamer, and he might very well OPS over .800.

    #154713
    Avatarbccran
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    Most importantly, a guy who has been shuffled around from SS to 2B to 3B to LF to RF can now concentrate on seeing how high his ceiling is defensively at one position.

    #154737
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Baker brings up an interesting thought about the potential change in defensive value in middle infielders resulting in increased shift use. Intuitively I would think the value would not change much. I guess you would have to see if more balls are hit right at guys due to the shift, and if so maybe you could get away with a statue playing second base.

    But still you have the double-play pivot, and there will be other batted balls that will be hit more up the middle or to the left of the shift.

    Thus I would say very little, if any, defensive downgraded would happen.

    #154738
    AvatarGameCard
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    Tommy Edman is the starting 2nd baseman in every game that he is healthy.

    #154739
    Avatarmspaid
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    Play Gorman at 2nd all spring. If he is tearing the cover off the ball and Edman is not then Goman is your starting 2nd baseman. Edman is the perfect utility guy.

    #154741
    Avatarbccran
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    Edman’s K rate coming through the minors was 14%. Refreshing. Plus he’s an above average defender. Sure hands and quick feet. The only thing is a slightly below average arm, which will be a lot better at 2B than at 3B or SS.

    #154742
    AvatarChristopher Jeske
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    Edman has been much stronger against left handed pitching so far. One possible future scenario is a second base platoon with Gorman taking the strong side. Lots of time for that to play out, though.

    Also, I’ve never been under the impression that Edman’s arm is below average. I think he might have a stronger arm than all our infielders not named Arenado.

    #154746
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    What is the source of your below-average scouting report on Edman’s arm, bccran?

    Fangraphs gives Edman’s arm a 50, which is average, and better than his 40/45 fielding grade.

    https://www.fangraphs.com/players/tommy-edman/19470/stats?position=2B/3B

    GameCard, you will quickly be proven wrong that Edman will start every day when healthy. Just this week, both Mo and Shildt said Carpenter will get some starts at second base. Mo was also very clear that if Carpenter hits, he will play. It seems obvious that second would be that spot. But of course, that is a huge if.

    Simply put, for Carpenter to play, one of Edman, Goldy or Arenado has to sit. Which one is not like the others?

    Take off the blinders regarding Edman, please. Let’s talk about what will really happen vs. what you hope will happen, pretending it is fact. They are not the same.

    #154747
    Avatarmudville
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    Okay. Let’s talk about what will ‘really happen’. You go first.

    #154748
    Avatarbccran
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    BW –

    Baseball Prospectus
    The Call-Up: Tommy Edman
    Writers – Craig Goldstein and Mark Barry
    Article Date – June 7, 2019

    #154749
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    mudville asked:

    Okay. Let’s talk about what will ‘really happen’. You go first.

    Please read my post above. It explains the situation adequately.

    Thanks, bccran. I will check that article out once I get the link.

    #154750
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    BW commented:

    Take off the blinders regarding Edman, please. Let’s talk about what will really happen vs. what you hope will happen, pretending it is fact. They are not the same.

    Has never been an Edman fan and consistently negative regarding him. This may bother some that have high “hopes” for Tommy. The proof will be in the pudding…. some of us will be right and you will be proved wrong. Of course you

      could

    be right and Carpenter will be our 2B.

    #154751
    Avatarbccran
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    BW –

    I just timed it. It took 8 seconds. I put in Google, Baseball Prospectus, and The Call-Up:Tommy Edman. The article came right up as the first link. It took 8 seconds. Sorry for the inconvenience for you to get to the article to check it out.

    Actually, it’s a pretty good overall summary of Tommy Edman. I enjoyed reading. Maybe some other posters would be interested in reading it too.

    #154754
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Bc, it would take less than half the time you spent writing your post to copy and paste the link.

    As for Edman, he’s got a ceiling of Kolten Wong’s play at 2B the last few years. That’s pretty good. More realistically, he will not be as good with the glove as Wong and possibly not as good with the bat either. A 2-3 WAR starter at 2B is fine. Gorman probably would displace Edman in that case.

    #154755
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    To be clear, I did NOT say that Carpenter will be the REGULAR second baseman. I took exception to the incorrect assertion by GC that Edman will start EVERY day he is healthy. That just isn’t going to be true.

    There could be a change in the starting role later in 2021, but it would require Carpenter to rediscover the fountain of youth and for Edman to not stand out (or an injury to Tommy). The combination of both happening seems less than likely.

    For 2022, if Gorman can handle the defensive intricacies of 2B, Edman will probably return to the utility role that Carpenter will have in 2021 (with the benefit that Edman can also back up SS). But a lot can change between now and them.

    #154758
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    Simply put, for Carpenter to play, one of Edman, Goldy or Arenado has to sit. Which one is not like the others?

    Now I’m confused.

    #154759
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    GameCard
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    Tommy Edman is the starting 2nd baseman in every game that he is healthy.

    Five seasons …. one 7-day stint on the IL in July ’18. He seems to be durable.

    #154762
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Yep, never questioned Edman’s durability. The matter is getting Carpenter playing time and 2B is the prime source.

    #154763
    Avatarbccran
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    Edman brings the speed at lead off that Carp doesn’t have. Plus he’s a switch hitter. Overall, Edman brings more things to the table since the shift came in against Carpenter.
    If Edman doesn’t lead off for us, who’s your leadoff man?

    #154764
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Ny said:

    Simply put, for Carpenter to play, one of Edman, Goldy or Arenado has to sit. Which one is not like the others?

    Now I’m confused.

    I am sorry that the reference is unclear to you. I will spell it out in detail.

    1) Carpenter can play one of three positions, third base, second base and first base.
    2) The starting third baseman is making $35 MM per year, is a five-time All-Star, has eight Gold Gloves and four Silver Sluggers.
    3) The starting first baseman is making $26.5 MM per year, is a six-time All-Star, has three Gold Gloves and four Silver Sluggers.
    4) The starting second baseman is a third-year minimum salaried player who was 13% below MLB average offensively in 2020.
    5) If Carpenter earns more regular playing time by rediscovering his hitting stroke, the one of those three he would most likely replace is the second baseman.

    #154765
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Edman brings the speed at lead off that Carp doesn’t have.

    Speed is no longer a requisite to lead off. Carp is the best leadoff man the Cards have had in a very long time, maybe ever. He was an excellent OBP man (which is what really counts), a solid base runner and developed some pop. Edman or Carlson are probably our leadoff guys. I’d just go with the hot hand and bat Goldy and Arenado 2-3 (thanks to jj for the suggestion, I’m warming to it!).

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