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Ahh…more of the wonderful Cardinals locker room is leaking out…
(Mod updated title to clarify subject.)
First of all utterly STUpID move on MM’s part to have players rattle on their teammates to get them fined. I am sure it happens elsewhere but it is beyond kindergarten crap that he is trying to instill in the team. For god sake Mm get a clue
Story may be true but the internet has become a prime source for smear artists. I believe very little I see on social media including media reports based on internet postings.
Hope things are OK in the clubhouse.
I know nothing about the details of the story, but I know Mark Saxon personally and he is not some internet hack. He is a very experienced beat writer who is with the team daily. It seems as if he is willing to report items that others do not. There are some who believe the local media is soft – see recent remarks from Bernie Miklasz on “Stockholm Syndrome”.
Questioning the credibility of the reporter because you don’t like the message would be off-base here.P.S. Ultimately, every reporter has to depend on his source(s) of information, unless he witnesses the acts directly. In this particular case, the original story has direct quotes from Matheny, Norris and Hicks which acknowledge that Norris has been riding Hicks since spring training. The article also reminds us that Hicks was sent down the first time for being late. The manager seems to support Norris.
Here is the link to the original story from The Athletic, but you must be a subscriber.
It it hazing or harassment, should it be ignored as insignificant or applauded as “tough love”? The answers are going to be personal opinions as none of us commenting here are a part of the team. And as we can see, different members of the team apparently see it differently. But the man in charge says he monitors the situation regularly and recognizes Norris’ leadership.
In fact, Matheny is using Norris as an extension of his eyes and ears. If you agree, you might say as a deputy. If you disagree, you might characterize Norris as a spy or a tattletale. Here is a quote from the article.
“At times, Matheny said, he has levied team fines after Norris’ reports.”
The article closes with acknowledgments that both relievers are being successful and that the relationship is “squeamish” behind the scenes.
Folks really need to read the original article rather than secondary reports.
The last three years, there have been rumors of turmoil in the Cardinals locker room. Each year, it comes out earlier in the season…
There are 3 players who have caused dissension. And their names aren’t Norris or Hicks. MM has been stuck with these players.
They need to be moved.maybe it is the manager that needs go because the more these stories some out the more it looks like as it has been said before he is OVER his head and he cant handle it period!
Onyx – perhaps if you stated your opinion as what it is – an opinion – it would be better. Your opinion is not a fact. There are fans who’s opinion it is that MM is not a good manager and those who’s opinion it is that he is.
I do know that MM has no say so re who’s on his 25 man. And if he’s saddled with a player with a difficult attitude, there’s only so much he can do. In industry, a manager can fire an employee if they don’t turn their negative attitude around. MM doesn’t have that ability. Big difference.In this case, who has the “difficult attitude”? Seems the discussion is being diverted away from the subject at hand.
Jen Langosch was away from the club until very recently on maternity leave. Those who read her work at MLB.com know her views are moderate.
https://twitter.com/BernieShow/status/1017403605501005824BW – When a poster accuses the Cardinal manager of instilling “kindergarten c—” I felt the need to respond. I doubt that is a “difficult attitude”.
Back to a tangent of the topic. How would you like to be responsible for the production of your department and not be able to truly discipline or terminate problem employees?
And to the subject – veterans on MLB teams have always been the behind the scenes disciplinarians when young players get out of line. And it was well publicized that Hicks needed a little disciple from veteran players early on.
Matheny is not powerless – he has the capability to assess fines and even bench Hicks if he so chooses. In fact, he said he has fined Hicks, but used Norris to gather his evidence.
I am not sure what grade it is. One poster called it kindergarten. MLB’s own beat writer called it middle-schoolish. (P.S. Both Saxon and Langosch have been around for a long time, each having been beat reporters covering other clubs before being assigned to St. Louis.)
IMO, this is not a positive for anyone involved.
Like any situation where a person manages a host of different personalities, things are not always “hunky-dory”. As a manager, you look at those “trouble-makers” and assess whether or not their production out-weighs the lack of cohesion in the department (or “clubhouse” in baseball terms). Since it is difficult to quantify the value of toxicity in the clubhouse, you want to be real careful not to make any rash moves to rid yourself of a player that puts up good numbers, but is difficult to deal with.
Specific to this thread, my take is that Norris has been mentoring Hicks and holding him to a high standard of conduct, but his style is a somewhat abrasive. Probably not a big deal, but when your club is under-achieving it takes on more significance.
If the club was leading the division, the story might be colored “Hicks Credits Norris With Helping Him Become Big-Leaguer”.
Except that Hicks’ own comments were not positive and I can’t imagine they would suddenly become rosy if the team was in first place.
We don’t have all the facts to make a clearer assessment.
What was Hicks doing to break the rules?
How has Norris been punishing him?
How does the rest of the team feel about Matheny’s approach?
etc…I know its long but this a comment posted on PD Goold’s Q&A concerning the status of the Cardinals and why it is as it is. IMO, a superior read.
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Nick Giunta
Mo knew about Ozuna’s shoulder issues, yet knowingly made the trade anyway. Not one, not two, but three players Mozo decided to part with, ALL CURRENTLY HAVE MORE HR’S than Ozuna. Yes, both Matt Adams, Randal Grichuk, & Stephen Piscotty all have out homered Ozuna, the bat Mo claimed would solve our middle of the order production problems.Going further back when Mo traded for RP Jordan Walden as part of the Heyward deal, Mo knew about Walden’s shoulder issues. Walden spent 95% of his 2 yr/6 mil contract with the Cardinals on the DL.
Mo knew when he ill advisedly gave Holland 14 mil, that Holland had struggled during the back half of last season with the Rockies. Yet ignored those warning signals, making the deal anyway. That’s why the Rockies who spent 52 mil on Wade Davis, which was the largest single amount EVER given to a reliever in MLB history, had zero interest in spending a dime on Holland. Holland just might be the biggest bust signing in the history of the Cardinal franchise. And that’s saying a lot for a GM like Mo, who has made countless blunders in recent yrs.
Mo knew when he signed RP Gregerson, that he was coming off the worst season (by far) of his career. Yet he ignored that. Gregerson has spent 90% of this yr on the DL, and he has not one but two different injury issues. Mo signed the overweight Cincinnati Red refugee Brayan Pena, to the largest contract he had ever received before, 5 million. That only for Pena to spend 95% of his time on the DL. Pena was released before the 2nd yr of his contract, they didn’t even bother to attempt to extract something from that investment. Which reminds one of another Mo brilliant signing for 2 yrs Ty Wigginton, who was released after the midway point of the first year, of his 2 yr contract.
Mo knew when he signed Mike Leake to the foolish 5 yr/80 mil dollar contract with the no trade clause, that was BY FAR the largest amount any club had ever paid Leake. And Leake rewarded Mo’s brilliance by losing 60% of his games for the 2 yrs, going 16-24 for his Cardinal career. Mo had to pay a bounty of 33% around 15 mil to get rid of Leake, with 3 yrs still remaining on his deal when he left. Only then to have Leake once again begin to win the moment he arrived in Seatlle, just as Leake had for yrs with the Reds prior to coming to the Cardinals.
Mo know when he decided to dump SP Marco Gonzalez, this upcoming year would be the first in many where Marco was healthy. Last night Marco won his 10th game of the season, he’s currently 10-5 pitching well for the apparent playoff bound Mariners. 10 wins matches the Cardinal rotation leader. And Leake has 8 wins himself. Leake and Gonzalez combined to date, are 18-11 thus far this season with the Mariners.
Getting back to Adams, Mo knew Adams had finally gotten himself in the best playing shape of his career. Mo inexplicably kept Adams for the yrs he was out of shape, enduring weak production. Only then to trade/give away Adams for a single A minor league nobody, who appears destined to remain a minor leaguer. Adams is currently a .283 hitter with 13 hr’s for the Nats, and he has missed part of this season on the DL.
Mo knew when he signed Dexter Fowler to another 5yr/80 mil/no trade blunder of a contract, that again it was by FAR more than any prior club had ever before invested in Fowler. The Cubs who had just won a World Series with Fowler, did not think enough of him to come close to offering him that much, either in yrs or millions. The Fowler mistake unlike the Leake mistake where it only cost Mo 33% in losses on the total amount owed, will look silly by comparison. Mo will probably have to eat 80-90% of the near 50 mil, he still owes the near worthless Fowler. And Fowler can’t even be traded, until he first waives the not trade clauss, in the same manner Leake did. Many players get additional compensation, when waiving a built into the contract no trade clause.
Mozeliak was responsible for appointing Chris Correa to the head of the Cardinal farm system. Correa rewarded that confidence by hacking into the Houston Astro proprietary data system, and is now serving a 4 yr prison sentence. And for any of you who believe Correa was the only one in the Cardinals org in the “loop” on that situation, I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
Speaking of knowing or not knowing Mr. DeWitt needs to be included in this morass. Apparently Mr. DeWitt does not know, that a GM is accountable for his roster construction. And I would suggest anyone come up with another GM worldwide in professional sports, who has made more poor roster choices than Mo over the last 3 yrs. Name the individual–anyone. And not only did Mo not lose his job, this dysfunctional org actually promoted Mo last yr on his recent record, and that horrific body of work. That qualifies as certifiable lunacy.
Could be. It’s a different world today. Back in the day coaches and older guys could totally abuse you and it was accepted as just the way it was.
I remember in high school sports in the ’70s, we were ridden somewhat mercilessly by coaches, and verbally abused all the time. In the class room, the coach was a nice guy and respectful, but in practice he was a foul-mouthed bully.
Today the younger crowd does not go for that. Plus the media has opened up some of the stuff that used to go on, and society does not go for that kind of thing anymore.
To be honest, I did not even go for it back then, and did not play football after my freshman year as I just did not like the whole atmosphere around it. Even back then I thought the treatment of the younger kids was not right, and was not going to subject myself to it. I did stick with baseball, which was not as bad – plus I was a better at baseball. 🙂
Sorry Bccran but when your coach has other players tattle on team mates so they get fined that is nothing more than kindergarten garbage and honesty for MM what doesn’t shock me, he has been in over his head from day one and keeps getting worse it seems every year….
Ny, thanks for sharing that long post. It seems a better fit on a Mo thread than here, however. You might consider starting a thread about that, like we have about Matheny.
P.S. If you do that, I would also be interested in seeing Goold’s response – if it had any substance. Those chats can be a bit of fire hose treatment and I can’t spare the time to go look for this item. Thanks.
Did they change the format? It used to be that Goold would go into a queue of questions that we could not see, pick the ones he wanted to respond to and posted them.
So while it was sort of live, it was restricted to only what he wanted the readers to see. (Likely necessary to maintain order.)
Or do you mean it was a disconnected comment, posted after the chat was over?
Either way, a Mo thread seems a good idea.
The have a place to drop comments on stories, in this case the selected comments chosen that were posted today.
https://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland/quick-hits-goold-on-the-cardinals/collection_ef9b82ad-3ecf-536f-a106-6708f4d82870.html?mode=commentsSo, I started a FO topic. One can use their imagination for who that entails.
The veteran players have always had a role in disciplining young players, Onyx, and provided an information pipeline to the manager.
Happens on all teams.
I’ll refer you to the Chris Carpenter/Brendon Ryan situation under Tony L. You’re just trying to use this stuff to prove why your extreme dislike of the Cardinal manager is justified.
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