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just a fun aside..my corp had a private q&a/symposium with mo for about an hour this am..and i peppered him…here are a few paraphrased highlights…i have to admit i was amazed with how candid he was
1) when asked about holland- he said he was marginally against the holland signing and spending on any bullpen arms in general, was voted down, thinks dollar value on pen arms is best cultivated in house
2)pham.. he fully admitted he wanted to trade him last year..and the year before that..was voted down and fully admits he was wrong, and is obvs glad he was wrong..
3)carp- is brutally honest that he is very frustrated with carp …said its MMs job to place him in lineup and IF he is in it…but cannot remain the same if this production continues…said that carp approached him YESTERDAY to talk to stat guys about how to further improve his game…also threw in fowlers name without being asked
4)wong- said (surprisingly) they were still hoping wong trends upward and are bullish on his upside
5) 2018 draft- (when asked about continued SP focus) said they would look at a corner spot or pitching but beyond that focus on best player for need, only place he was honestly ambiguous..
im not sure what we paid to have him speak for an hour or so, but i expected a lot of “mo corporate speak” was happily surprised…thought i would share
thats a good follow up question, not quite sure, but whoever it is (apparently) his vote is equal to others? Mo seems like a professional corporate wordsmith, so it was just really surprising to see him be so candid, today a room full of 50 people with smartphones might as well be speaking to the public when you are in his position
I have found over the years that Mo is generally quite candid. I suspect those who feel otherwise have not actually been exposed to him other than perhaps via TV sound clips. For example, those who attend public events like Winter Warm Up each January experience his candor. In fact, I always attend his public Q&A as he usually says things he does not with the media.
As far as voting, just do what you would do with any organization, look at the org chart. There is only one box higher than the President. “Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.”
So who in the hell wanted to spend $14 million on Holland? Dewitt?
I mean he did say Gregorson was the closer. Someone wasn’t convinced during spring training that we had enough bullpen arms and got worried and threw money at it ans it appears foolishly spent $14 million and lost a pick.
I dont take being out voted as being soley DeWitt. On some decisions they may actually poll some combination of Mo, Girsh, Matheny, and who knows whom else.
Boras has a well-documented history of going over the front offices’ heads and dealing directly with owners when he feels it necessary to get his free agents signed. I do not know if it was the case with Holland, but it would not surprise me if there was contact. After all, the season had already started and Holland was the last major free agent still jobless. Boras is not going to leave any stones unturned.
One can imagine that on major decisions input is secured from many. That would be the case in any well-run organization. On the other hand, I don’t think any exec who has staying power rules by consensus.
I guess Mo could have overruled himself, but that seems odd.Perhaps I am placing too much emphasis on the word “overruled” but here is its dictionary definition.reject or disallow by exercising one’s superior authority.
“the Supreme Court overruled the lower court”Not to overthink this, when all is said and done, who says “Yes” or “No” to spending $14 MM?
P.S. Had he not also cited the Pham example, making it clear that he can be wrong, I would have been more concerned about the Holland remarks. They distance him personally from the team’s decision, when it should be his job to defend what his team does. Perhaps he is a bit miffed about being overruled, with Holland’s slow start seemingly confirming his vote. Or maybe he is being just a bit too candid.
But, again, all of this is third-hand speculation. I also should have mentioned, thank you grays, for sharing your notes from the meeting. Good discussion fodder.
I would agree 100% if Mo had used the word “overruled” but according to the OP he used “voted down”. That may be him trying to diplomatically not take the blame while not wanting to blame someone else or it may mean what it says. I wouldn’t offer up the definition of overruled though since there is no evidence of that being what was said.
I don’t understand why Holland keeps coming up as a bust. There’s still a likelihood that Holland could be a big asset during a playoff run. He is a proven closer.
Grays- very interesting questions. I’m wondering what % of Mozeliak’s answers were honest. The Holland answer may be unwelcomed news for GH, the real GM saying he was against signing him. Geez, I know how I would feel:… lousy.
I agree that the signing was ill-advised. I hope that he isn’t Cecil part II.
Agreed, CC. My mistake. Not sure why I saw “overruled” when it was not used. I will strike through the definition as it is misleading. My other points remain.
I agree, mud. The jury remains out on Holland. The people labeling him as a bust now would have released Norris this spring, as if the first 10 innings of the year are enough to get a firm reading on anyone.
At this time next year, Mo’s comments about Holland could be similar to his admission this year of being wrong about Pham. (Probably less likely since Holland’s contract ends this fall.)
I think that there is some validity in the concerns about Holland. He didn’t finish ’18 well, he was the LAST of the “premier’ closers to get signed and the controversy about him getting rushed to the majors after missing ST.
There is also his performance early on and some worries that we paid too much. Now he isn’t getting a rave review from Mozeliak. All considered I get a sense he is not a good fit for our BP.
I take it Mudville hasn’t seen the Viva El Birdos article on Holland’s last appearance and the conclusions they came up with even back to last season.
https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2018/4/29/17294666/the-dutch-disaster
Thanks for sharing grays. That was great insight!
I find it ironic that Mo keeps stating that a bullpen should be built in house when half of our current pen came from outside the organization this past winter. Besides Holland there is Gregerson, Leone, and Norris. Was he voted down on all of them?
I would also add that this team would be near the Reds in the standings if it weren’t for Norris.
With all due respect, the VEB story focuses on one bad at-bat and asserts that without his 2014 velocity, Holland will be ineffective. Well, in 2015-2017, he saved 73 games in 82 chances.
Actually, Holland finished 2017 very strongly. His only troubles last season were in August, after he cut a finger in a kitchen accident. Here is the link for those unaware of it.
Suppose a cut on the index finger of his pitching hand could have impacted his results?
He was exceptional all season long, with an ERA under 2 in every month other than August, despite it being his first season coming off Tommy John surgery.
Specifically in September, he went 1-1 with five saves in five attempts, struck out 12 and walked two with a 1.86 ERA in 9 2/3 innings.
In my book, that is a strong finish, so I am curious what others are looking at.
So the jury still out on Holland because he is struggling but not on Norris because he is doing awesome? I was one of the ones asking for his release but it is getting old to hear about it constantly. Being wrong happens to all, having it repeated to you almost everyday is tiresome. Yes Norris is doing awesome and it would have been big mistake to release him. I am done with the Norris subject. Those who want to gloat can keep doing so.
Holland’s stats from 8-6 until 8-26 were bad and may have been caused by the finger incident, but Holland was never DLed and in this era pitchers get DLed for very insignificant and uncomfortable issues, even paper cuts.
Holland pitched in 8 games during the period mentioned. In five of those games he was roughed up, pitching
3.1 inn-14 ER- 4 losses. Those five games resulted in his very high ERA for Aug. I guess that’s what some here are referring to. In all fairness, calling the tail end of ’17 poor, based on those five games, may be unrepresentative of his performance overall.However, his performance so far in ’18 may be caused by other excuses.
Nothing personal to you or anyone else, NJ. To be honest, I did not recall which posters were for Norris’ release, but it was more than one. I am citing the Norris example because it is a great comp. Holland had yet to throw as many innings as Norris this spring. Some people lack patience and I am hoping a specific reminder of a very recent and similar situation might temper the reaction a bit.
I am concerned about Holland, too, but not to the extent of some others. I felt the exact same way about Norris and said so. The jury was still out on him, even after a poor spring training.
P.S. On the patience point, one of the regulars here tweeted to me the other day that Gregerson should be DFAed. That is after he was injured most of the spring and has pitched 4 2/3 innings so far this season. (Correction. He had only pitched 3 2/3 innings at that point.)
Baseball is marathon not a sprint. If you advocate drastic decisions on a small sample you are more likely to be wrong. You will remember when you were right but those whose favorite player you blasted are just as like to remember those statements when you were wrong. Or if they are iritated with some of your posts they are most likely to remember those that are wrong.
I like to wait it out a bit. Holland appears to have more of a location problem rather than stuff but he did get hit hard the last outing on what looked like his good pitches.
I do have concerns as most seem to have about Carpenter. History tells me that players who achieve regular major league status after age 25 are most likely to fade earlier than those who get there in their early 20’s. Carp is one of those late bloomers as are Gyorko, Lyons and Jose Martinez. Pham is different because of his injury problems.
I felt a year ago that we should be looking at moving Carp to the American League where a DH type who can also play a number of positions have more value. Also Carp has some clutch ability which can help a team driving for a championship. He has been a good Cardinal and organizations seem to hang on to those types a little longer.
Also you never know what else is going on. Playing hurt, possible substance abuse, serious family problems, whatever. Even in the age of instant knowledge we are not going to know a lot of what is going on behind closed doors.
Great stuff. I am not surprised on the comments about Wong. I am still high on him, and think he can be a solid player. I have the same sense of him as I did Pham in 2016. What you do is look beyond the stats to the players tools. Pham was a five tool guy, he just had not shown that on a consistent basis a couple of years ago.
Wong is similar. Above average defense, which will get better with playing time, speed, range, occasional power. He seems to struggle some with confidence, but he is a guy where you just keep running him out there and as he relaxes and let’s his ability take over, he will get better and better.
Now some guys can never get to that point. Sometimes a guy will have a lot of “stage fright” (anxiety, whatever you want to call it) and just can’t seem to get to the next level. I believe Tyler Greene was a bit that way.
With no insight at all into his situation, I wondered the same about Mayers. I believe the psychological/mental aspects of sports often explain things that deviate significantly from projection.
While I think Wong has all star potential I see him has our best trade chip. He has a decent contract, He still has enough upside and is young enough to bring back something valuable. Via Garcia, Gyrko, Schrock, Carpenter, and Munoz we can cover the loss.
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