MLB team payroll management

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  • #123060
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Friedman backer, rejoice. The Cardinals rank 13th in dead money, owing $4 MM for Leake.

    #123061
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    In current team payrolls, the Cardinals rank 10th.

    #123069
    Avatargscottar
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    Friedman inherited a big mess payroll wise for sure and he has made it a little better each year.

    My definition of dead payroll is a little different than Edwards although his definition is much more objective. For example, I think an argument could be made that at least a certain percentage of money owed to Cecil, Fowler, and Carpenter is dead money although I don’t know what that percentage is. To know if a player’s salary is “dead weight” or not ask yourself if that player could be traded to another team without paying the contract down first?

    #123074
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Friedman has been with the Dodgers almost 5 1/2 years now. It certainly could have been different in the the beginning, but he did not inherit the current bad contracts.

    This article outlines the bad contracts LA had last season, totaling more than $40 million. All were taken on after Friedman was hired in October 2014. It looks like some he took on to avoid other sins (payroll so high he was going over the tax limit) and others were bad international signings made on his watch.

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2826984-why-the-2019-dodgers-are-paying-over-40-million-to-players-not-on-the-roster

    #123079
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    I would include deferred money as a category as well but I didn’t write the article. Also, wouldn’t buyout options also count as dead money? For instance the Cardinals owe Greggerson $1M for buying him out for 2020.

    #123080
    Avatargscottar
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    Yep, I was referring to the bloated mess he inherited when he took over, such as albatross contracts like Crawford, Ethier, and Kemp. Although yes it is correct that some of their international signings in recent years have been busts.

    Since he took over the payrolls have been (per Cots):

    2015- $271
    2016- $249
    2017- $241
    2018- $187
    2019- $196
    2020- $217

    And they have a lot of flexibility since none of their current contracts go past 2022.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Avatargscottar.
    #123081
    Avatargscottar
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    Here are the current 25 man payrolls per Cots. These figures are a little different than the CBT payroll for each team because they are calculated differently.

    1. Yankees- 242.7
    2. Dodgers- 217.9
    3. Astros- 210.6
    4. Red Sox- 191.2
    5. Cubs- 184.1
    6. Phillies- 176.5
    7. Nationals- 175.5
    8. Angels- 175.5
    9. Mets- 174.4
    10. Cardinals- 164.9
    11. Giants- 154.2
    12. Rockies- 150.5
    13. Rangers- 147.9
    14. Braves- 147.4
    15. Padres- 144.3
    16. Reds- 141.4
    17. Twins- 134.5
    18. White Sox- 123.0
    19. Dbacks- 118.4
    20. Blue Jays- 104.3
    21. Tigers- 102.1
    22. Mariners- 96.7
    23. Brewers- 95.5
    24. A’s- 92.4
    25. Indians- 90.6
    26. Royals- 78.6
    27. Marlins- 68.9
    28. Rays- 67.5
    29. Orioles- 59.7
    30. Pirates- 56.9

    #123108
    Avatar1982 willie
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    I wish the cardinals were paying more to players not to play for them in some cases.

    #123129
    Avatarforsch31
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    gscott, let me play devil’s advocate. How do you handle your definition of dead payroll if Cecil comes out at the start of the season and starts pitching like the pitcher the Cardinals gave all that money to. Early reports are that he is feeling healthy and throwing like he did when he was healthy. What about if Carpenter has worked on his swing and approach and starts hitting like Carpenter of 2015? The amount of their contract that would be considered dead payroll would shift considerably over the course of a season depending how they were doing.

    Heck, at this point, quite a bit of Mikolas’ contract could be considered dead payroll.

    #123156
    Avatargscottar
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    If Cecil and Carpenter come out and play like gangbusters I would be glad to remove them from my dead payroll list but I will believe it when I see it. I would give Carpenter a better chance than Cecil of accomplishing that.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Avatargscottar.
    #123160
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    My problem with subjective list tweaking to include players still active on their rosters is that even if we agreed on the Cardinals, we don’t understand the other 29 teams well enough to put the Cardinals revised totals in any kind of meaningful context. (For example, is Albert Pujols or Jason Heyward dead money? How much? Part of all of it? The arguments would never be resolved.)

    Hence the far more straight-forward approach Edwards took in his articles to compare real dead money (as opposed to those not yet dead) across the 30 teams.

    #123165
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    (as opposed to those not yet dead)

    As Monty Python (and Brett Cecil) would say…I’m not dead! I’m getting better!!

    #123170
    Avatargscottar
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    No doubt that the objective approach is more straight forward. I think I referenced that in my original comments. But in reality, if you have payroll on your roster that you are getting very limited production from and it is preventing you from adding to your roster, and you can’t remove it without eating a portion, then you should take it into account somehow, whether you want to call it “dead payroll”, “semi-dead payroll”, “burdensome payroll”, etc….

    Again, I am not sure what exact criteria to use but I know it is there somewhere. Saying that the Cardinals only have $4M in dead payroll is true by Edwards definition but it seems a little misleading if one comes to the conclusion that the other $160M payroll is unburdensome.

    Tomayto, Tomahto

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Avatargscottar.
    #123178
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    All true, but does anyone think there is a single team from among the 30 that does not have players making more in salary than their production merits? At least any playoff-caliber ones? I highly doubt it. It would be great if a team could do that, but it is totally unrealistic to expect.

    Looking at the Cardinals isn’t enough for me. I want to know if they are better or worse than others. The myopic Cardinals-only view assumes they are worse. Again, that is because we only know one roster in depth.

    Returning to our earlier example, at the same time, the Dodgers carried $40 MM alone in dead deals, with this subjective amount to be added on top of that. So which team is more likely worse off with dead and dying money?

    To me, that comparison is what should matter, not griping more about Fowler and Carpenter and Cecil. We’ve beaten those horses to death a number of times already. Even if they were cats, they would be about out of their nine lives by now… 😉

    #123189
    Avatargscottar
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    I don’t recall anyone saying that no playoff caliber teams are free from dead payroll, whether it is subjective or objective. Of course they have it.

    But if you really want to make this a Cardinals vs Dodgers debat then let’s look at it. According to Cot’s the Dodgers dead payroll is $14.5M (Edwards includes an additional $7M due to Maeda’s performance bonuses but we don’t know how many, if any, will be met). The Cardinals would have $4M in dead money to Leake. This is advantage Cardinals.

    What conclusions should we come to by having this information? Well the Dodgers have had some busts in the international market mostly. I am guessing the point of this thread was to illustrate how the Dodger front office is not as great as I make it out to be since my praise of Friedman seems to be a source of irritation.

    I still believe that the two front offices have a lot of similarities, and have repeatedly said that should be taken as a compliment to Mozeliak and Co. Let’s look at those similarities:

    1. A philosophy of building from within: Cardinals- yes, Dodgers-yes
    2. A philosophy of retaining your own veterans: Cardinals-yes, Dodgers-yes
    3. A philosophy of supplementing with trades: Cardinals-yes, Dodgers-yes
    4. A philosophy of avoiding large FA contracts from outside players: Cardinals-yes, Dodgers-yes
    5. A philosophy of utilizing the international market/draft: Cardinals-yes, Dodgers-yes
    6. A philosophy of avoiding long term contracts in general: Cardinals-yes, Dodgers-yes
    7. A willingness to bump payroll up to the CBT: Cardinals-no, Dodgers-yes

    So the only big difference I see is the willingness to go close to the CBT, which could be because the Dodgers have more revenue and also the fact they haven’t won the WS since 1988, therefore are under more pressure to show urgency.

    I may be missing some points so please correct me where I am wrong. Again, the two front offices being similar is a good thing. I don’t know why that is such an irritating thought. I am no Dodger fan but I have appreciation for well ran organizations and I think they are one even if they are under a WS drought. My praise of Friedman doesn’t have to be viewed as a put down to Mozeliak. They are both similar in my view which is a compliment.

    #123192
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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