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That’s the way it worked at one time, Oliver. In 1960, Bob Gibson appeared in 27 games. He was the SP’er for 12 of them. In 1965, Jim Palmer appeared in 27 games. He was the SP’er for 6 of them. Also in 1965, Steve Carlton appeared in 15 games. He was the SP’er for 2 of them. And lastly, and maybe the most well known of that particular approach, in 1969 Nolan Ryan appeared in 25 games. He was the SP’er for 10 of them. Those guys all did pretty good. Maybe it’s a pretty good approach? Whether or not it is, that was seemingly a common approach used in the development of Big League SP’ers.
Hicks will probably be put on the IL due to some type of injury we know nothing about. That way he can rehab at Memphis and get his control back. (Cynical, I know, but it seems to happen to our players when they are playing bad and have no options)
Hicks will probably be put on the IL due to some type of injury we know nothing about. That way he can rehab at Memphis and get his control back. (Cynical, I know, but it seems to happen to our players when they are playing bad and have no options)
Yep, this is what I posted two days ago:
Since Hicks can’t be sent to Memphis without his consent I think it is time for the Cardinals to find an injury. Considering his history it shouldn’t be that hard to find. He is too flammable even for a mop up role at this point.
Every single miserable thing that’s happened with Jordan Hicks’ MLB career has been 100% foreseeable. Here’s an oldie but a goodie. All of the following is from November, 2018:
Last 7 starts of 2017 for Hicks, at age 20, across Low and High-A:
Posted a 1.21 ERA and sub-2.00 FIP, with a 40/9 K/BB, and better than a 4-1 Groundout/Flyout ratio, and zero home runs, and just 12.8 pitches per inning.For that brief shining period of time, Jordan Hicks and his blistering fastball possessed the Perfect Pitcher Profile™. And you don’t move a perfect pitcher to the bullpen. I cannot imagine a reason why I will ever relent in my belief that he should have stayed a starter until he showed he couldn’t be. Not with those numbers cited above.
The only way the St. Louis front office looks non-crazy in this matter, is if Hicks becomes as effective and durable as Kimbrel or Kenley. And that’s about a 100-1 shot, because those are 2 of the 4 or 5 best relievers in MLB history. What’s really going to happen, is Hicks will maybe be Trevor Rosenthal II, i.e., a sometimes great reliever who breaks down off and on over the next 3-5 years, because that’s what happens to 95-99% of relievers.
I feel terrible for Hicks. He was never given any chance to hone his craft, to learn anything much about how to pitch. And now that he’s in MLB, every outing will be about nothing more than getting through the inning. With just 20-something innings above Low-A ball before being shoved to the majors, he will never be what he could have been — whether that’s as a reliever or starter.
Ten or fifteen years from now, Mo will look back at Jordan Hicks’ career and reproach himself. As well he should. You don’t do to anyone what they’ve done to Hicks. (That’s why it pretty much never happens, with any pitcher, in any organization, ever.)
It’s early, but it’s still a little disconcerting to see that Hicks has been alloted as much work at 3.1 IP’ed as has both Thompson and Packy. Hicks in his 3.1 IP’ed has allowed 5 ER’s on 6 hits and 5 BB’s, whereas in the 6.2 innings of equally split work, the duo of Thompson/Packy have allowed 0 ER’s on 2 hits and 1 BB. In my view, the LH’ed or or RH’ed aspect has no bearing on what those simple numbers dictate. The Redbird field manager simply has to stop handing the baseball to Hicks.
I think the problem is we have exceeded the amount of “Jordan’s” one is allowed, and Hicks drew the short straw and is the odd man out. A couple of years ago we were heavy on “Tyler’s”, and eventually had to send Webb packing.
But seriously, the answer to this is for Jordan, oh, I mean Jordan Hicks, to go to AAA and get into a starter’s role. I would coach him to relax, use the change-up often, knowing you always have the fastball in your arsenal as a wipe out pitch. But don’t feature the fastball too often. Work on using the change, slider and breaking pitches, keeping that fastball in the hitter’s mind. But most of all, relax and pace yourself to build up to 100-110 pitches per outing.
The only way the St. Louis front office looks non-crazy in this matter,
They beamed him up to MLB from A ball, so there is no way to look non-crazy. Radar gun derangement. The ability to think rationally is lost.
Like I mentioned on another thread, MLB hitters can handle 100 if that’s all there is, and Hicks never had the chance to learn how to use it effectively. Its too late now because the injury train has left the station. Any time he makes any progress he gets injured and when he gets off the shelf he has to start over. They need to collect up all the guns and pitch them over the side.
Bob Reed…I always enjoy reading your comments and thinking about your keen observations, but Craig Kimbrel and Jason Kenley are 2 of the best 4 or 5 relievers in Big League history? If that’s indeed so, I need to pay closer attention…Haha!
I’ve always thought the problem with Jordan Hicks is a simple and fundamental one. He can’t throw a strike when he has to.
Bob explains it well. Making Hicks a closer at such an early time in his development was a mistake you could see happening as it occurred.
Continued development as a starter, and an occasional bullpen use early in his big league career would have been fine. But some of us have said all along that he was a top rotation starter in the making had they stuck to the plan. But people got all gaga about a 100 MPH fastball and said, “Use that for 15-20 pitches a game in the late innings at the top level kid.” The inevitable breakdown was easy to forecast at that point.
Not going back to the drawing board has been a waste of a once promising career.
“…Craig Kimbrel and Jason Kenley are 2 of the best 4 or 5 relievers in Big League history? If that’s indeed so, I need to pay closer attention…Haha!”
Maybe I’m just being stubborn but I don’t think my estimation of Kimbrel/Kenley has aged too poorly, Andujar. Kimbrel has had some struggles in recent years (the ranking dates to 2018, recall), but I think he and Jansen can still both be reasonably rated top 5 overall.
1) Mariano Rivera
No business at all being a unanimous HOFer, but definitely the best failed starter in history.2) Hoyt Wilhelm
Began his MLB career in relief exclusively, then was a hybrid arm for 6 or 7 years, then converted back to bullpen-only duty in ’64 by the White Sox. During his first 5 years in that role for the Southsiders his ERAs were 1.99, 1.81, 1.66, 1.31, and 1.73. (And he was averaging more than 100 innings per year as well.) Then in 1969 he finally slipped to a 2.19 ERA. But we should probably cut him some slack for that, as he was 46 years old.And then numbers 3 through 5 could be almost any trio from among Hall Of Fame relievers plus Billy Wagner, Aroldis Chapman, Joe Nathan, and Kimbrel & Kenley. But my chief argument for the latter two would be in the form of ERA/FIP, adjusted for ballpark and era.
Here’s the 5 most effective relievers in history (min. 500 IP) ordered according to the average of their ERA- and FIP- (lower is better, of course):
1)Rivera 53
2)Kimbrel 58
3)Wagner 59
4)Chapman 59
5)Jansen 62Mr. Wilhelm (just a 75 by this ERA/FIP yardstick) got a big bump from me for both Peak and Volume. I don’t see a viable argument for dislodging Wilhelm from Reliever Rushmore. On the other hand, if you prefer Billy Wagner to Kimbrel, or Chapman to Jansen, I wouldn’t say you’re wrong, Andujar. But I gently choose to disagree.
They need to collect up all the guns and pitch them over the side.
I agree. Not to beat up on DannyMac but he didn’t do anyone any favors when we was screaming like a teenage girl every time Hicks hit 103 on the gun.
This needed a bump.
If Naughton is really hurt then we may see more of Jordan ‘Arson’ Hicks than our stomachs can handle….
Candidates if #STLCards LHR Packy Naughton goes on IL. Genesis Cabrera is off to a nice start with Memphis. 3 1/3 innings, 1 H, 2 BB, 0 ER, 0 K. Could receive another chance. JoJo Romero: 1 clean IP, 2 Ks. Andrew Suarez also decent with 2 ER in 5 1/3 IP, but lacks a 40-man spot.
— Brian Walton (@B_Walton) April 8, 2023
Bob Reed has been spot on. I would add that Jordan is said to be one of the hardest workers in the weight room. He is overcoming significant health issues.
We should understand the team robbed him of his development. Jordan didn’t do that. He worked tirelessly through obstacles many fear to face, and he did it as a kid.
Todd Worrell and Jason Isringhausen failed as starters, and Braden Looper successfully became a starter for us after serving in the pen. I say let the guy pitch; he will always have more potential than the guy we replace him with. It’s early and none of us have a clue about what the future will bring for Hicks.Yeah, player “discomfort” seems to be the “in” ailment these days.
“Hey coach, I’ve got a little discomfort in the gluteus maximus.”
Bob Reed…I honestly simply go by my memory of a lot of these guys out of the BP working 2 and even 3 innings to record a save and seeing these guys in the big games when it comes to relievers, Bob Reed. I’m entirely certain my list is very vulnerable to scrutiny, but in my view, these are the Mount Rushmore names, so to speak, of the All Timers out of the BP…
1. Mariano Rivera…He’s easy.
2. Rollie Fingers…One of the vanguard guys. I came of age in the 70’s and how can you not like not only the name, but also the cookie duster…Haha!
3. Bruce Sutter…I’m a Redbird fan…”Brruuuuuce!”
4. Sparky Lyle…A CYA winner, two championships with the Yankees, a genuine workhorse with 1390.1 IP’ed in a 16 year career, and 3-0 with a 1.69 ERA in 13 appearances and 21.1 IP’ed in post-season games. Moreover, his name is “Sparky”…Haha!
5. Hoyt Wilhelm…His heyday was before my time, but like you mentioned, the Mount Rushmore of relievers would be a fraudulent monument without Hoyts’ face etched into it…At any rate, those are the guys I think of when I really need an out…I love baseball numbers, but as you can see, I entirely disregard them when it concerns the last out of an important game.
The pack has dropped back to Hicks and his performance doesn’t really stand out as more problematic that most everyone else. I doubt he is the biggest worry right now.
He’s not at all someone to worry about unless a game is still within reach and his manager hands him the baseball.
I doubt he is the biggest worry right now.
He’s not at all someone to worry about unless a game is still within reach
Fredbird disagrees
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