Cardinals Mt. Rushmore

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  • #126171
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Who are your top 4 all-time Cardinal players? I put mine on Twitter.

    https://twitter.com/bikecardmike/status/1247646496385728512/photo/1

    #126173
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    I just became your fifth follower! Welcome to the not so wonderful world of social media!

    I also agree with your four. The visual of the baseball cards led me to reflect on the fact they span 100 years of Cardinals baseball. Other than a brief overlap between the end of Stan’s career and Gibson’s start, they were never teammates. Each represents a different era of team history, which I like.

    #126175
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Thanks Brian. Yeah, I am still sort of a novice on Twitter and do not post on there too much.

    That photo is of a display in a curio cabinet in my home-office, which I now spend a lot of time in since I am one of the many on the “work-from-home” mandate.

    The Cardinals rich history is such that we have great players from most every era. I am interested to see what other fans have as their top four, or five or six or whatever. I know Jerry Modene, who we do not hear from anymore, would not have The Rajah there. 🙂

    #126176
    RatsbuddyRatsbuddy
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    BicycleMike,
    I have been trying to post something to you but I keep getting an error message so I am trying here.

    After watching the MLB Network show on how would the ’80s Cardinals fair in today’s game I have started a new Replay in Strat-O-Matic. I have replaced the 2019 Cardinals with the 1985 Cardinals and am replaying the 2019 Schedule. Due to the virus everything is shut down and there is nothing to do so I started this project.

    So far, not great. 22-20 and we just won a 3-1 game in Atlanta in 10 innings. Stolen base by Coleman in the 10th, rbi single by McGee who has struggled late, and an rbi double by Clark in the top of the 10th. Dayley got the save.

    r/Esteemed Rat

    #126177
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Rats, we have not had person-to-person private messaging on this site for three years now. If that is what you have been trying to do repeatedly, then I get why you have been frustrated.

    If you want to talk further about your posting problems, please take it to the QUESTIONS ABOUT… thread pinned to the top of the board. Thanks.

    #126179
    Avatarbccran
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    How about the top 10 Cardinals of all time

    Musial
    Pujols
    Hornsby
    Gibson
    Brock
    Smith
    Frisch
    Bottomley
    Schoendienst
    Dean

    Look about right?

    #126180
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Funny you should mention Jerry Modene. In the winter of 2006-2007, I decided we should name the all-time top 40 Cardinals players. Rather than have it be just my list, I recruited Jerry along with Rob Rains and Ray Mileur. The final results are still visible to all in the left menu bar under TOP ALLTIME PLAYERS/TEAMS.

    The consensus top 10 differed from bccran’s list in only two names. We had Slaughter and Boyer instead of Frisch and Bottomley.

    In comparison to bccran, my personal top 10 (one-fourth of the consensus) also had Slaughter and Boyer while I did not have Frisch and Red. IMO, the latter two also had success as managers, but fell short of my top 10 when considered as players only.

    Jerry was highly opinionated, as bikemike hinted upon, but some of his votes were, shall I say, off kilter, as he really whacked old-timers in favor of guys he had seen. For example, Jerry put Bottomley way down at no. 38. He left Pop Haines off his top 40 entirely, but Ray had Haines at no. 4!

    Jerry barely had Hornsby in his top 10, but put Mark McGwire in it! On the other hand, Rob refused to vote for McGwire at all.

    The forum members ran their own voting as well. Amazingly, they left Ozzie out of their top 10, but they had Johnny Mize in it!

    In other words, it was quite the diverse set of views. It gave us material to discuss, but in hindsight, I still like my top 40 list best – not surprisingly. In redoing it today, I would move Albert up, as he had five more years to go. Yadi, Wainwright and Holliday would make their way in.

    Interesting how fan perception can be so different. Vince Coleman made only one of our top 40s (Ray), yet fans voted him into the team Hall of Fame ahead of the likes of Keith Hernandez and John Tudor.

    Sorry for the long post…

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by Brian WaltonBrian Walton.
    #126182
    Avatarbccran
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    Did most people take tenure as a Cardinal into account? It might be good to put a minimum # of years as a Cardinal to be qualified. Or at least half of their playing career.
    As a side note, I pulled my top 10 list from the master list of Cardinals sho are in the Baseball Hall of Fame, cross referencing against tenure as a Cardinal.

    #126186
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    If you look at Hornsby’s baseball card you would say a magnificent ball player…. which he was. If you check out his resume off the field and sometimes on the field, you would be looking at a player with a checkered past. He had a difficult personality to contend with which was the reason he was traded so often and was married and divorced so many times. He loved the game and played and managed for years after his MLB career ended. He had a reason for needing a paycheck.

    His managerial career was worse, often fighting with the the people that hired him. His biography has to be a good read…. he was some character.

    This is a short bio….http://rogershornsby.com/bio3.htm

    I also checked out his bio on Wikipedia. Since most of us are stuck at home anyway give it a look.

    #126194
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Some great Cardinals there, Cranny. Some people might like Slaughter, Boyer and maybe Mize, although Big Jawn was as good with other clubs as he was with St. Louis.

    B-R lists the top performers based on total WAR, not just as a Cardinal but combined for all teams, but where the bulk of their career was with the Cardinals. They have the “Mt. Rushmore” guys as the top four, followed by Smith, Boyer, Slaughter, Simmons, Flood and Dean. Two current guys pushing to get there are Wainwright and Molina at 12 and 13. They are about 5 WAR short of Brock, who is at 11. Waino is likely in his last year or two and won’t quite make it, and Yadi will be hard pressed as well.

    #126201
    Avatarbccran
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    Some from the TCN top 40 list –

    Steve Carleton – 5+ years with the Cards. 15 years with the Phils.

    Johnny Mize – 6 years with the Cards, 10 years with the Giants and Yankees.

    Bruce Sutter – only 4 years with the Cards. 8 years with the Cubs and Braves.

    Mark McGwire – 12 years with the Athletics. Only 5 years with the Cards.

    John Tudor – only 4 years with the Cards. 6 years with the Red Sox, Pirates, and Dodgers.

    I ruled guys like that out for an “All Cardinal Team”

    #126202
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Yadi is underrated via WAR on most sites. Some have attempted to more accurately cover catcher defense but it’s pretty hard to quantify (like how does the fact that almost no one has run on the Cards for 15 years play into Yadi’s value?). For example, Baseball Prospectus has Yadi at 58 career WAR, Fangraphs at 54 and BRef at 40.1. He’d be safely in my top 10.

    #126206
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Cool project Rats. I am on a quest in a similar “what if” scenario. I use Action PC games. The project I put together goes this way – it is after the 1961 season and the Cardinals sit down with franchise icon Stan Musial, who says he wants to play three more years, through 1964. Gussie and Bing work out a 3 year deal, but all parties feel Stan needs to return to first base for the final years of his stellar career.

    They have Bill White at first, who looks like he could be a solid player for a number of years. The Phillies offer the Cardinals Robin Roberts for White, so Redbirds decide to make the deal and reunite him with former Whiz Kid Curt Simmons in the hope that Roberts can get back to pitching like he did in his glory years, or close to it, and open up first for Stan.

    They call off a proposed deal that would have sent Joe Cunningham to the White Sox for Minnie Minoso, wanting Joe to stay on as insurance at first in case Stan is hurt for an extended period of time.

    Now we fast forward to 1964. It is Stan’s final season. Thus I am playing the 1964 season, only with Stan still in uniform, White on the Phillies, and Robin Roberts on the Cardinals. Roberts was actually on the Baltimore Orioles that year, and so I sent Roger Craig to Baltimore to help them a little with the loss of Roberts. I also did a couple of other minor deals, and am not ruling out doing a few other trades that were not made as the season progresses.

    For Stan, since he did not play in ‘64 I made a “card” of him where I combined his ‘62 and ‘63 stats, and used the average of the two seasons. He was quite good in ‘62, so my ‘64 version is pretty good – I wanted him to go out on a decent season.

    So far I am only into late April and the Cardinals are not doing real well at 4-5. They are getting good pitching, but not hitting much. I will make the Brock-Broglio deal once we get to June 15. So Lou is on the Cubs for now. I also use actual lineups, except the Cardinals of course where I use the same lineup Johnny Keane used except sub Stan in for White, and occasionally play Cunningham given that Stan needs a day off now and then.

    Right now I am working full-time from home on a contract that runs probably through late May, thus I have not had much time to play lately. But I will get it going as the Spring and Summer goes along and will put in occasional updates.

    Hope everyone forgives me for the long post if you are not into this sort of thing. Rats and I love doing this sort of stuff.

    #126209
    thejagerthejager
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    I feel like this would be better done for every decade?

    but all time, it’s hard to argue against Mike’s (and my) picks:

    The “Man”
    The “Rajah”
    Gibby
    The “Machine”

    after that? some pretty good discussions to be had, at least on order if we went to 10:

    locks:
    Wizard
    Diz
    Brock
    Red

    Then a fight for the last 2 spots

    #126216
    Boyer14Boyer14
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    Ted Simmons

    #126222
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    bccran wrote:

    I ruled guys like that out for an “All Cardinal Team”

    That is why you need consistent ground rules up front. The Cardinals’ own team Hall of Fame specifically notes that EVERY player who played for the team for at least three years is eligible. One player you disqualify, Bruce Sutter, not only proudly wears a red jacket alongside Gibson and Brock, but also has his number retired and is recognized among the very few best of the best on the outfield wall.

    As soon as we create our own more restrictive guidelines, then the lists change and there can never be consensus. But good discussion, anyway.

    #126229
    Avatarbccran
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    Here are the Cardinals in the National Baseball Hall of Fame, along with the number of seasons wearing a Cardinal uniform –

    Grover Cleveland Alexander – 4
    Walter Alston – 1
    Jake Beckley – 4
    Jim Bottomley – 11
    Roger Bresnehan – 4
    Lou Brock – 16
    Mordecai Brown – 1
    Jesse Burkett – 3
    Steve Carleton – 7
    Orlando Cepeda – 3
    Roger Conner – 4
    Dizzy Dean – 7
    Leo Durocher – 5
    Dennis Eckersley – 2
    Frankie Frisch – 11
    Pud Galvin – 1
    Bob Gibson – 17
    Burleigh Grimes – 4
    Chick Hafey – 8
    Jesse Haines – 18 (surprising)
    Rogers Hornsby – 13
    Miller Huggins – 7
    Rabbitt Maranville – 2 (surprising)
    John McGraw – 1
    Joey Medwick – 11
    Johnny Mize – 6
    Stan Musial – 21
    Kid Nichols – 2
    Wilbert Robinson – 1
    Red Schoendienst – 15
    Ted Simmons – 13
    Enos Slaughter – 13
    Lee Smith – 4
    Ozzie Smith – 15
    John Smoltz – 1
    Billy Southworth – 3
    Bruce Sutter – 4
    Joe Torre – 6
    Dizzy Vance – 2
    Larry Walker – 2
    Bobby Wallace – 5
    Hoyt Wilhelm – 1
    Vic Willis – 1
    Cy Young – 2 (surprise here)

    Adding the possible future members of the Hall –

    Albert Pujols – 11
    Yadier Molina – 15 so far
    Adam Wainwright – 14 so far
    Chris Carpenter – 9

    So, should “greatest Cardinals” also take into consideration tenure as a Cardinal (total contributions), in addition to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame?

    Here are the top 15 by tenure so far –

    Musial
    Haines
    Gibson
    Brock
    Schoendienst
    Smith
    Molina (so far)
    Wainwright (so far)
    Hornsby
    Slaughter
    Pujols
    Simmons
    Medwick
    Frisch
    Bottomley

    #126230
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    WAR as a Cardinal only is one of the many things we consider for the team Hall of Fame. Not surprisingly, the Rushmore Four lead the way all time.

    Musial 127
    Hornsby 94
    Gibson 91
    Albert 87

    At the other end, here are some other team HOF members.

    Sutter 4
    Izzy 5
    Coleman 12
    McCarver 19
    McGee 21
    McGwire 22
    Torre 25
    Rolen 27
    Red 29

    Guys not in:

    Hernandez 34
    Carlton 24
    Morris 23

    No scoring method will satisfy all…

    #126234
    Avatarbccran
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    That’s very true, BW. Longevity as a Cardinal and Hall of Fame membership is one thing. WAR while wearing the Cardinal uniform is another. It’s a complicated project to come up with a system, and you’re right that no system will satisfy all.

    For instance, why is Bruce Sutter on the outfield wall at Busch as one of the Cardinals in the National Baseball Hall of Fame?

    1976 – Cubs – 83.1 innings
    1977 – Cubs – 107.1 innings
    1978 – Cubs – 99 innings
    1979 – Cubs – 101.1 innings
    1980 – Cubs – 102.1 innings
    1981 – Cards – 82.1 innings
    1982 – Cards – 102.1 innings
    1983 – Cards – 89.1 innings
    1984 – Cards – 122.2 innings (wow)
    1985 – Braves – 88.1 innings
    1986 – Braves – 18.2 innings
    1987 – Braves – 45.1 innings

    Is it because he wanted to go into the Hall as a Cardinal?
    Is it because he was a part of the 1982 World Championship team?

    #126237
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    #126238
    Avatarbccran
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    Thanks for the answer, BHC. I wonder if there’s a minimum number of seasons, though. What would have happened if 1982 was Sutter’s only year with the Cardinals, but far and away his most memorable. Would the Hall still have allowed him to choose a Cardinal cap?

    #126274
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    I recall quite well the “top 40” Cardinal thread, and played along at home putting in my 2 cents and player as we counted down. I do not believe I have my list anymore, so would need to make a new one. Things have changed since then anyway.

    Hornsby was quite a character. Like many of us he was a study in contradictions. For example, he stayed away from tobacco and alcohol, and made it known that he disliked others to partake, yet he could not keep away from the horse races. He was intense and opinionated, and could had trouble relating to players who were not like him, but did a great job managed the Cardinals for a season and a half.

    I have a biography on Hornsby. It’s been awhile since I read it, but remember one part where he was managing in the minor leagues in the late ‘40s I believe. A kid on the team asked him for some hitting tips and Hornsby goes something like “Well, you need to do this”, and gets a bat and has a batting practice pitcher throw to him. He was around 50 years old, but sprayed line drives all over the park for several minutes while the kid watched. When he finished he walked off he goes “…that’s how you do it”. 🙂

    There’s another cool story about a time at the end of Spring Training where the Cardinals and Yankees met up in New Orleans for some games. This was when both Hornsby and Ruth were in their prime, and apparently they both put in quite a show in BP. The crowd was decidedly with Hornsby more than Ruth, maybe because like us humans are, we like the underdog character more than the one on top.

    #126315
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    Stan the Man
    Gibby
    Ozzie
    Albert

    #126316
    Boyer14Boyer14
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    Stan
    Gibson

    #126332
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Hey Boyer14, do you see only two Cardinals as worthy of being highly honored? If you had to choose who would be your 3 and 4 guys?

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